HyperKat Support and Tester Forum
Mars Challenger V1.0 => Mars General Discussion => Topic started by: Hooke on January 27, 2010, 11:54:32 AM
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Here is a link to a good video. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3401/02.html
With the Algea producing Alcohol this technology would be the cheapest and removethe need for shuttle landings for anything as small as ore loads.
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A space elevator on mars would be a highly efficient form of ground to space transport... and FAR easier to engineer than on earth.
A bio-fuel elevator probably will be a no go though... PV or Nuclear.. whichever weighs less.
as a side note I <3 space elevators, and want to build a game with one as the center piece.
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No need for Bio-fuel or nuclear. Very little atmosphere means mirrors and solar panels will get it. Use batteries to help store the energy and cover the outside in panels, you will have electrical to spare.
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Since you guys have lots of time on yer hands and we are talking transport, sink your teeth into this one.
The main colony on mars will transport things to our colony and others. Right now I have a little jump jet kinda thing but will that be the method for distance transport for a colony 10 to 50 miles away or more?
Do some research and find this out:
1 is the atmosphere capable of having a blimp? Light gas small jet propulsion
2 is a jump jet practical given the atmosphere? I.E. a hellicopter but instead of blades have it jet powered. I say jet but it wont be a jet it will have to be a propulsion system that carries it's own oxidizer
3 is transport over distance on Mars destined to be a giant truck or rail system?
Inquiring minds need to code it.....
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Since you guys have lots of time on yer hands and we are talking transport, sink your teeth into this one.
The main colony on mars will transport things to our colony and others. Right now I have a little jump jet kinda thing but will that be the method for distance transport for a colony 10 to 50 miles away or more?
Do some research and find this out:
1 is the atmosphere capable of having a blimp? Light gas small jet propulsion
2 is a jump jet practical given the atmosphere? I.E. a hellicopter but instead of blades have it jet powered. I say jet but it wont be a jet it will have to be a propulsion system that carries it's own oxidizer
3 is transport over distance on Mars destined to be a giant truck or rail system?
Inquiring minds need to code it.....
Due to the ludicrously thin atmosphere, even with the reduced gravity, air travel is highly improbable.
Building an airframe light enough and large enough to support a modest cargo capacity is barely within our technical limitations currently, (Think a plane like the one that the person using pedal powered across the English channel, just with 15 times more wingspan bare minimum) and would be a seriously inefficient form of transportation. Something like this will fly, but it would need to be traveling VERY fast to generate lift.... *this one in concept is rocket powered*
(http://www.worldbook.com/wb/images/content_spotlight/mars/ares_on_mars.jpg)
It also is ultra-lightweight with fuel weighs less than 300KG... And probably does not have a payload capacity of more than 10kg. Might be useful for long distance ultra low weight courier missions. like sending a circuit board to a far off hab... could never land safely though.. would be a one use plane. Unless somehow someone could produce a runway 10 miles long smooth as glass.
Blimps, balloons, and the like with currently known materials just will not work, their material weighs more than the buoyancy of mars's pathetic atmosphere could provide.... maybe an extremely *and I mean less than 1 micron extremely* thin form of plastic could work and at least get a thing like a child's helium balloon off the ground, but I do not see it as a form of cargo transport with current or near future technology. (displacing a cubic KM of atmosphere on mars wouldn't even provide much lift compared to the weight of the envelope even with something as light as helium in a .5 micron Mylar sheath. I am not sure it would even lift off.) However... for a parachute like effect, it could in theory work well.. Possibly a solar Montgolfiere style balloon could carry a little weight, maybe a couple KG for a ways... during the day... Once again hinging on a yet undiscovered ultra lightweight and strong material. Joe Kittinger almost made it to martian atmosphere levels on earth... I do recommend you watch this video. Its so amazing. *mars would have been 35KM* maybe with reduced gravity, the extra upward inertia might have carried him there.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-369888258105653405&ei=0HBiS5TBBoykrALrpezRCA&q=parachute+from+edge+of+space&client=firefox-a#
Or a more spiritual and detailed view of his jump here ->
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-369888258105653405&ei=0HBiS5TBBoykrALrpezRCA&q=parachute+from+edge+of+space&client=firefox-a#docid=-3147115862843769268
Easily a video that could change your views on life if you let it.
"jump" jets (VTOL aircraft) Are nearly impossible. Since it is forced to carry it's own oxidizer, expect an endurance of 3 mins or less, even with reduced gravity.... massive fuel hog as well. Landing is a serious concern as carrying enough fuel to slow it down from a decent is problematic after a launch *The atmosphere isn't thick enough to slow it down like with current VTOL craft* Unless the fuel to cargo ratio was moved to 500 to 1 or so with droppable external tanks, either every "landing" would result in a crater and an end to the ships life or a chute would have to be deployed.
Sadly I see little air travel possible other than rocket based.. Thankfully the super thin atmosphere and low gravity does help this a little, but it will still be a fuel hog and deplete the seriously finite amount of theoretically available hydrogen on mars. It would have to rocket up.. and deploy a seriously large chute and coast back down to the ground for maximum efficiency..
Linear induction mass accelerators could kinda toss packets of cargo between colonies... and I think a parachute could be made thin enough to work in the martian atmosphere with current technology... Probably Mylar(tm) would work if it was made really thin. This system would never work on earth of course with our dense atmosphere but shouldn't be a real massive technical challenge on mars.
Umm.. Rail.. Too much labor required to lay down initially... But most efficient.. could be driven off of a colony's electrical system... many advantages, it will be used but not at the stage where the game plays out.
I am thinking probably automated heavy duty trucks with multiply redundant drive systems and very large wheels is the most likely short term solution... It would need a very wide stance for stability as well... a rollover would be catastrophic...(Sadly useless designs permeate pop culture... For example: This concept here involves so much wishful thinking it borders on santa clause.. Anyone trying to use this on mars will probably die or not get where they want to go... For one thing I can see it would roll over and continue rolling on an incline of 10-25 degrees depending on if those suspension joints compensated or not... A medium bump about 2.5 feet tall could flip it if they were rigid... I have seen no practical designs rendered anywhere. )
(http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/07/23/space-3_s1dj3_7071.jpg)
Something like this traveling at a sane speed, with a wider base,and a lower center of gravity, would be a lot better... Yes, I know it is a monster truck.. but many of the obstacles they face are similar to ones that will be on mars.
(http://carsmedia.ign.com/cars/image/article/813/813500/batman-monster-truck-20070817113430022-000.jpg)
*Yes I know the rovers wheels were small, but they only traveled a couple feet a day and had time to plot every rock obstacle out weeks in advance. Also please note that even though they have traveled less than 18 miles total, one is currently stuck...
There will not be enough labor available for manual driving in many instances... There certainly will not be enough labor or equipment available to produce a decent road... Every route will have to be mapped ahead of time and obstacles will have to be bypassed or traversed instead of removed... The wheels will have to be very large... Probably diameter = 2.5-6 meters... ground clearance would need to be at least 1-3 meters, or route choices would be VERY limited... thankfully the gravity is less.. Could be done with current earth based technology... Rubber tires probably would not survive long in the cold with the high ultraviolet content.. would have to be a special material.. possibly Kevlar strengthened air tight material... possibly rubber covered with another material to protect it.. weight issues with rubber... More likely Kevlar fiber if earth made. Wire mesh possible, however unlikely due to long term fatigue issues... If rubber could be synthesized on mars, that would be the most likely solution, with internal bands of Kevlar or something similar (steel may become brittle) and an external coating to protect it.
I did a horrible MSpaint rendering on what could work in theory.. imagine a wheel base 2-3x the height of the vehicle, since I did not do a isometric rendering. It is necessary due to the height of the obstacles on mars to prevent a roll over.
(http://www.nightfrostonline.com/profit/rover%20concept.png)
In any event it needs to be able to traverse something like this ->
(http://grdurand.com/blogger/uploaded_images/beaglecrater_opportunity-791990.jpg)
Or this *Note the tiny rover for scale of the rocks*
(http://www.kozmikhoroscopes.com/mars_lan.gif)
And this ->
(http://rlv.zcache.com/mars_surface_martian_landscape_binder-p127976904957173813f2vmk_400.jpg)
Roads could in theory be made mid term by fabricating a bulldozer type machine out of martian materials, however it would be cost prohibitive to ship one in from earth... To work effectively on mars it would have to weigh more than 2x what it does on earth. Could not be automated or telepresenced , humans can feel things sitting in a bulldozer that are required for their operation(just trust me on this, if you have driven a bulldozer, or a loader there are things you just feel and cannot be transmitted in another form)... due to the stresses the operator would probably have to be in a pressure suit all the time because a shirt sleeve cabin would be prone to critical failure. Dozers flex an incredible amount during operation, and maintaining seals would be problematic. Might be possible though.
Mag lev rail probably mid-long term solution. With no atmosphere speeds of 600kph (400mph ish for fellow Americans) should be possible with fair safety.
Sub orbital rocket, or LIM accelerator for long range, mid term solutions, until rail spreads to their area.
I see no short-term, long-range solutions for transport between colonies. All technologies I can imagine working in a martian environment would not be viable immediately on a virgin planet without sufficient access to labor, resources, or materials. Ugly conundrum, the only solution I see is no long distance transport until the infrastructure is in place to produce some significant amounts of martian based goods. IE: All initial colonies would necessary be confined to a very small area compared to total martian surface. ( Less than 300km *2-7 days safe transport speed* apart tops)
*PS you are right about time on my hands as I realize I have spent close to 6 hours looking up and verifying things on this single post... Gah.. I wish my fiancee' was here...
*Side note, I have no actual experience in any of these things so my ideas can and possibly are wrong in some instances... I am a farmer and a janitor (would like to be a Network admin but no one will hire me =/ )using google to tell me how things work and what kind of conditions and environments there are... there are just common sense things that I see(like when something is susceptible to rolling over, how to drive a bulldozer,front end loader, ect)... Still farmers arn't dumb, and you better be thankful for that every time you eat a meal =p
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Great post Profit! Well done. I agree with your research and think we will be regaled to ground transport.
Expanding on your earlier space elevator idea. I wonder if some sort of fixed orbit outpost could be a
destination for the space elevator. Transport packages could be hoisted up to the outpost where it
could then be outfitted with some sort of delivery shell. Wouldn't need much in the way of propellant just robust landing gear, airbags, parachute/foil etc. and a decent solid state navigation module.
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My Real Life job often involves the logistics of moving 1000's of metric tonnes of soil/stone/rock whatever, from pit to job vice versa- Luckly for me the infrastructure of road/rail/river network is allready in place and all it really involves is a bit of traffic management/police control and a few phone calls to haulage firms and permissions from councils etc..
On MCO in its current state, I imagine the mass of material would be scaled down to the 10's or 100's of tonnes per 'shift'.. for me the only viable solution to move materials of that mass, to distances of 1-100KM would be to use a series of scaled up transport truck rovers, in a convoy..
I agree with profits cleverly researched work at all of his points, but the reality of having a simulator to work with means the we can bend the rules and 'cut corners' and still be able to have a complex and challenging series of events to simulate the way a problem is solved.. without simulating the actual mechanical workings of each system.. ie simulating a road build would involve a whole simulation programme in its self..
In a series of events, the haulage solution could be solved by.
1. Players would have to survey a route, to define shortest and most efficent paths (not up hills all the time!)
2. Routes would have to be cleared of obsticales, and a roadway would have to be placed. As profit says, a bulldozer would have to be manned. And building of a road in MCO could be simplified as clearing a path and compacting the road (maybe a purpose built rover that has blade and compaction unit). There is a hell of a lot of science in building a road on earth in civil engineering terms (load factors, angular dispacement, expansion, soil compression matrix over time, caustic voids etc etc) so in gaming terms it could mean that the road building rover is driven, and behind it a 'road' is produced. MCO roads would make transporting faster and that if transport rover goes off the 'road' it slows up and gets damage..
3. If transporting for long distances , I would imagine that the transport rover convoys would be automated- so a series of becons would be placed to direct the traffic.
so, the transport rovers are at one colony, they are filled with materials and when ready, the order is given for them to start they journey, after a period of time they reach there destination and are unloaded (maybe manually driven from there end destination point to loading/unloading area).
This could lead to some interesting missions including the survey, actually building the road (long range roading building would need the rover to be able to carry a lifesupport system and a means of generating more o2, power, etc- or maybe drops could be inplace for pickups and refueling). So more interesting missions including emergency rescue (road building rover breaks down) and/or transport rovers breaking down, getting lost/stuck/ recovery..etc.
But, to simplfy even further, you could have a large transport rover, fill it, enter coordinates of destination- u get message 'transport truck is leaving' away it goes finding its own way there in the shortest route, when rover has arrives at the designated place, you get message 'the transport rover has arrived at such and such'.
I'm guessing that would be easiest to code. But I dont code, I build stuff!
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But, to simplfy even further, you could have a large transport rover, fill it, enter coordinates of destination- u get message 'transport truck is leaving' away it goes finding its own way there in the shortest route, when rover has arrives at the designated place, you get message 'the transport rover has arrived at such and such'.
I'm guessing that would be easiest to code. But I dont code, I build stuff!
Actualy this suggestion is easier to code. But these are all great suggestions.
1. Players would have to survey a route, to define shortest and most efficent paths (not up hills all the time!)
2. Routes would have to be cleared of obsticales, and a roadway would have to be placed. As profit says, a bulldozer would have to be manned. And building of a road in MCO could be simplified as clearing a path and compacting the road (maybe a purpose built rover that has blade and compaction unit). There is a hell of a lot of science in building a road on earth in civil engineering terms (load factors, angular dispacement, expansion, soil compression matrix over time, caustic voids etc etc) so in gaming terms it could mean that the road building rover is driven, and behind it a 'road' is produced. MCO roads would make transporting faster and that if transport rover goes off the 'road' it slows up and gets damage..
3. If transporting for long distances , I would imagine that the transport rover convoys would be automated- so a series of becons would be placed to direct the traffic.
so, the transport rovers are at one colony, they are filled with materials and when ready, the order is given for them to start they journey, after a period of time they reach there destination and are unloaded (maybe manually driven from there end destination point to loading/unloading area).
The issue I see here is replayability. It would be very cool to do this, Survey, clear objects, lay road, etc. But in MCO, once done, its done, so today it would be fun, but tomorrow there would be nothing to do. But what if we could add maintenance or something? A while ago I read SCI-FI book about a group of colonists that had to move from a northern colony to a southern colony half a world away. The big thing was having to deal with obstacles on the transport road, like floods, sandstorms burrying the road, earthquakes destroying parts or creating crevises, etc. What if we added something like that, were the MCO colonists have to keep the road/path clear every day or the convoy can never get there or leave?
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(http://carsmedia.ign.com/cars/image/article/813/813500/batman-monster-truck-20070817113430022-000.jpg)
I think Hyper and I need one each of these as personal rovers on mars.
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@ Xorekis, yes that is true.. once its built its built- maybe if a route was created with repeater beacons, which themselves could fail and/or need maintenace. Beacons could be added or moved so larger scale or more efficent routes could be planned.. failures of the beacons or transport responders and/or in severe sandstorms could make the transport get lost (runs for a while then if loses transponder signal stops). Giving the players missions to plan for recovery of such problems. I like to imagine MCO to have these kind of problems occur, its fine and dandy to have a perfectally set up and smoothly running colony, but in a gaming sense what would that leave you too do..
Another strongpoint of MCO for me is the problems that occur and how the players react and solve the issues,.. if MCO needs anything it needs to be 'difficult' to re-create the difficulties of colonising Mars- Make MCO hard to survive, thats what I think..
Keep up the great work guys, cant wait for 4.02/03 test!!!
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The big issue for us to code any kind of transport is if I can get a truck or a train to come to the site where the game is played users will want to drive a rover back down the road and the way life is they would just drive off the edge of the game world. I would like to think that a train or tram would be added later in the game after the colony reaches a certain stage ( Simon lights up like a christmas tree here) but the game/code issue is running off the world. Open for suggestions here....
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One thought I had, was to add tunnel enterances that the convoy appears from and disappears to. I guess another point would be to allow the convoy to past the furthest point a player can, and either vanish or appear around a hill. Another way, would be to fade it in or out at the extreams.
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I get it now, you are saying that another colony would be in another 'zone' or game world..
A large transport vehicle gets filled then drives off to the edge of the game world/zone and then appears in the next world/zone (would this be same server?) having a animated vehicle/train, which requires no player interaction would work well..
problems with train, it would need a track, which would need laying(building) and if raised would block off acesses over it. A tunnel sounds like an easy way out (but tunneling is a pig of a job, I helped build the Channel tunnel rail link from stratford bridge, London which went under the River Thames- cost millions and involved hundreds of pepole and specialist machines).
I understand (kinda) the limits of simulating such things must be real tough- My views are completely from a gamers and game buyers point of view. And what would impress me and what would say to me ''hey thats cool, I like how they thought of that''
So to me a 'vanishing' truck or transport would give a sense of realisum, and I guess allow for less work for you guys.
@hyper, maybe if the train track or ground base mono-rail started near the edge of the game world, players could transport material to the 'station' via transport truck- load up train, you get a bit of animation as train dissapears into the distance in the nogo zone, players return transport truck back to colony.. at the other zone, the train arrives at there 'station' from nogo zone (after a period of time), unload, and return the goods back to there colony.. you could say tacks are layed automanously between zones, once enough material is gained. This could work for tunnels too, ie tunnels between zones..
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It's kinda gamey, but oblivion does this with people entering houses to good effect....
Just have the rovers fade out when they reach the border of the colony map.
It's not that harsh of an effect, and gamers will accept it.
*I can not remember one person who complained about people fading away when they entered a house instead of opening the door and going inside and using 10x the graphics power and memory.
Just put a sign post to mark the way to the other colony, and to differentiate it from any other spot along the edge of the map.
As for road building... I really don't think martian colonist will be doing that near where we are in the colonization stage.. There just isn't enough infrastructure to support it. Tunnels are certainly out from a realism standpoint.
I have this feeling that real martian colonists at the simulators stage will have to lump it and drive on some of the nastiest terrain available. Maybe the area immediately around a hab will have been cleared, but I kinda don't think there will be labor, equipment,life support, or fuel to make an actual road.
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check out the article on aircraft on the red planet site which is extremely relevant and interesting to this discussion.
http://www.redcolony.com
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check out the article on aircraft on the red planet site which is extremely relevant and interesting to this discussion.
http://www.redcolony.com
Just as a side note this part of the main site there is wrong unless my recent trip to the power plant outside of Toronto has the wrong information in their brochures: (I cant help it, I like seeing nuclear power plants they make me feel warm and safe for some reason... They also have a kick ass wind turbine there... I will see if I can find and put up my picture of it.)
"Among the iron, gold, and other substances that exist on Mars, there is a much more promising material that may be the key to unlock a $60 billion industry and the long-awaited nuclear fusion power: Deuterium. Deuterium�s main application would be as fuel in the nearly waste-free, safe, thermonuclear fusion reactors. "
Deuterium exists in nearly inexhaustible amounts on earth and is easy to procure, store, and transport. We separate it by the ton from seawater and freshwater, and is used in conventional Candu fission nuclear reactors as a neutron moderator in the form of "Heavy water"
Perhaps they mean Helium-3 isotope.. But that is one heck of a mistake to make.
*Edit:Found pictures of the windmill! LOL I <3 my fiancee =) She always seems to take the best pictures*
(http://www.nightfrostonline.com/profit/Windmill%20top.jpg)
(http://www.nightfrostonline.com/profit/Windmill%20Bottem.jpg)
Yes... that is me standing staring up at the windmill at the fence....
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Thorium....
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Yeah a thorium fuel cycle reactor would be a lot better than uranium we have currently....
Course honestly might as well "burn" it all... Shouldn't be hard to modify a thorium reactor based on what I understand of them to accept high level "nuclear waste" as part of their fuel too and achieve nearly 100% activation then burn up of it... Just keep reprocessing it until there are no long life isotopes left..
*That is a mostly snap statement I have nothing to back it up, just to me it looks possible that a thorium reactor could provide a good environment for complete burn up of uranium and plutonium*
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For relatively low mass (ceiling of 100 - 150 kg) shock-insensitive packages, lofting from a central location (chemical rocket, mass-driver, linear accelator, etc.) along a sub-orbital path towards the target colony with terminal cushioning being provided by inflatable airbags would be viable, depending on the season, within a hundred or so km of the central location. Greater distance could be accepted during Martian summer due to lower average wind speeds, though increased atmospheric drag would play a detracting factor. However, as you approach and exceed maximum distance or as storms move through the trajectory path, precision drops to unacceptable levels for retrieval in a timely manner. For more sensitive cargo, adverse weather conditions, and distant destinations, automated freight haulers, albeit with moderate to low maximum speeds, could either be automated or tele-operated along known routes. The DARPA Grand Challenge and and European Land-Robot Trials have demonstrated completely autonomous travel for 500+ km over undeveloped terrain and 150+ km through traffic. Another option would entail one tele-operated or "intelligent" vehicle leading and a convoy of "dumb" vehicles following in the lead vehicles tracks, a.k.a. "Keep 50 m behind the vehicle ahead of you." Of course, for all this we're assuming some sort of communications constellation in orbit.
Just my 2c.
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I agree with the lower precision idea, this would allow a cheaper quicker transportation for early colonies. This would also increase the replay on this particular part because it turns it into a mission. This would obviously get repetitive after a while so other modes of transportation could bought or developed.
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i like the idea of shooting it in the air would make for good salvage expeditions lol
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the transport system has to be bi directional. How are we gona make money if we dont ship things back to the main colony?
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It adds a bit of trust aspect into the game. you have to trust that they are either launching at the same time, or they will be launching. When you are first starting off only ship small amounts to build up a trusting relation.
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There will be trucks, probably robotic show up when we have things to ship out or deliveries. Later if our colony is worthy enough we will get trains. Launching missiles around probably wont be an option. Unless things need drop shipped from orbit I see land transport our best option.
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Since you guys have lots of time on yer hands and we are talking transport, sink your teeth into this one.
The main colony on mars will transport things to our colony and others. Right now I have a little jump jet kinda thing but will that be the method for distance transport for a colony 10 to 50 miles away or more?
Do some research and find this out:
1 is the atmosphere capable of having a blimp? Light gas small jet propulsion
2 is a jump jet practical given the atmosphere? I.E. a hellicopter but instead of blades have it jet powered. I say jet but it wont be a jet it will have to be a propulsion system that carries it's own oxidizer
3 is transport over distance on Mars destined to be a giant truck or rail system?
Inquiring minds need to code it.....
For ground transport to other colonies, there could be the bobcat frontend loader system to fit on the rovers that I mentioned in a previous post to lay road beds, then markers. Then you could simply set a rover on the road bed following markers by programing. Radio navigation would be fine, although I am sure that any mission to mars would be preceeeded by a series of satalites that could be re-tasked to GPS. They dont have to be sophisticated, GPS can be managed with the simple sputnick beep beep beep. then again the technology already in the game with the map showing where we have shot GPRs and drilled are all infering satalite documentation. The same exact technology can be used to define the roadbed and program rovers to do a variety of things as well as facilitate remote controlled usage. Which come to think of it, would make a lot of sense to have a ton of the stuff done outside the hab do-able by remote control. With a variety of tools installable on the rovers we could do more tasks. Think KUBOTA tractor here. Each rover can mount a RCV rig, front end loader, dozer blade, post hole digger, hell FARM implements for planting a variety of plants that can grow right now in the current atmosphere makeup.
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Simple bobcat-front end loader would probably not be able to cope with martian soil.
Unlike earth where water and plants continuously make it finer grained and easy to move, mars has significant rock everywhere, and surrounding craters the the heat of the impact Glassifies the soil.. Which is incredibly hard as well.
Boulders have not been worn down by erosion, and even in the reduced gravity can weigh several earth tons.
Any road building project will likely need explosives or a VERY VERY heavy duty dozer with a high mass blade capable of shattering the rock, and pushing rock formations that weigh more than a semi-truck. *not sure we can build such a dozer with current technology... let alone transport it to mars*
The dozer would also have to be built to resist shocks from rock sheer that would tear a rover apart the first time it encountered one. IE: Isolated and shock dampened electronics, and a intenrnal combustion engine for power... batteries, electrical motors, RTG's, and pretty much any current technology would die rapidly as it was literally shaken to death and exposed to rapid high/low torque variations. It would have to be engineered unlike anything else on mars... Built better than a tank...
Lubrication and oils for the joints is also a severe concern as the thin atmosphere will deplete many oils and greases rapidly, the sand particles may be incredibly abrasive(They do not have water to wear them round), and the cold temperatures will cause the metal to be more susceptible to wear.
I imagine tubes of stabilized lithium grease will be a top martian import from earth =/
Anything a bobcat type extension on a rover could clear, any decent martian designed truck could simply drive over.
(http://www.nightfrostonline.com/profit/rover%20concept.png)
I agree however with GPS. It will be on mars.. it is too useful and simple to not have it. An entire GPS network would only take maybe 12 sats in geostationary, and they would be incredibly simple as you pointed out.
Farm implements are a possibility, but the atmosphere on mars will not sustain earth based plants, except perhaps at the bottom of a deep hole.. Now if you put those plants in a dome and put martian atmosphere at 20X pressure, Things like lichens and mosses probably will grow. *no one really knows for sure*
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I like the idea of using some sort of ground transports in MCO. It's rather obvious that early on, it will involve us driving over rough unprepared terrain. But, maybe later in the game, there can be provisions for some sort of Dozer Rover and Loader Rover to build a simple dirt road.
A paved road? Maybe in the later stages. First off you have to realize we base most of our road surfaces out of products from fossil fuels. On Mars, our only real alternative would be some type of concrete mix. Wich will require more Dozers and Loaders and dump-rovers to transport it. It would also require a cement mill and concrete mixer plant to produce the finished concrete in sufficient quantities.
It would also be a long term, ongoing project that would require team work.
It all sounds fun to me.
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Only issue with cement on Mars is it's -80c and you need water to make the cement. Since cement never really dries out it will freeze and crack to pieces. There are some additives like calcium you can add but it will be a bit difficult to do that.
The all terrain rovers we have now work great but we could make road paths using markers to tell the users the best way to go to lessen the strain on the rovers.
I would like to think someday we can alter the terrain geometry but that might be a bit out right now.
Thanks for the input Beo keep it up.
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LOL, I just finished doing some reading myself and had realized the same thing about the water freezing up! Oh well, it was just a thought.
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Well, if you want to talk concrete and freezing,.. I have myself oversaw concrete pours (also known as Ceramic Casting!) of large (ish) scale volumes (100m+ 3) in sub zero temps (well around -10, -15 c ).. for cold pours an accelerator compound is added to speed up curing process, becouse concrete curing is a chemical reaction, opposed to a hydrophillic reaction (ie drying out).. also as concrete cures it gives off a lot of heat, so a bigger pour will give off more heat (the extra heat, combined with the chemical reaction increases curing time). Which is why large scale pours, can cure faster than a small volume pour.. and also why concrete can cure when totally submerged under water, often large scale pours use a series of accelerents and retardants to slow/speed the curing process, to reduce cracking and shrinkage...
I would not expect concrete roads to be placed on Mars,.. the logistics seem to great..I have helped build lots of KM of roads with My RL work, true on Earth and not Mars!
So you would not need, high speed 4 lane type motorways on Mars.. I still think Flat, compacted, frozen (maybe spraying area with water before) regloth, cleared of obstacles would be more "do-able"- So Agree @ Hyper, its more plausable, to use rovers that are able to navigate the terrian, with a planned, surveyed route.
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Wait!....trains? This isn't Sim City! Trains? Really?!?
I think trains will really kill the feel of the game. But, oh well, that's just my opinion. :-[
I posted this on another thread but, It seems to fit this topic as well.......if one colony happens to have a lot of water wells, and another happens to have a lot of farms, and yet another has a an abundance of mines and foundries, then there will be a need for a some type of trade and transport system.
I agree with e-maxx, different types of rovers or different classes of rovers might be a good way to go.
One way to go would to be to make a basic tug or tractor type of rover and then introduce different trailers or modules you could hook up to the Basic tug rover or place on the back of a rover.
Yeah, I know, it sounds like, "Mars Road Trucker." But, the concept is sound.
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i have to agree with BEO, kinda would like to see the current rover concept get expanded a bit more...maybe trains was a type of rover connected modular like that could follow a mapped transponder path hab to hab or colony to colony.
still think a self contained mobile rover hab type that is use for prospecting would be great...it could move from map to map selling its ore etc
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Trains are not appropriate for the era of martian colonization we are in.
They require way more manpower and materials to construct the tracks than the colonies should have available...
So.. I am fairly certain they will not be around to break the atmosphere of the game.
With our current technology levels, it should be possible to make a rover/truck that can drive the martian surface without locater beacons or transponders. Just GPS and have it follow a preplanned route based on sat surveillance with obstacle avoidance like the current mars rovers have.
Course.. Might want to have someone watch remotely the first time just to make sure there are no crazy terrain formations that it might not understand.
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Have to disagree about the trains. May not have giant coal trains but a simple tracking system to a mine area wouldn't be out of our reach. I see it as later on and in a well developed colony. I have seen simple track systems that dont carry a heavy load, not like our big trains but more like built in sections and dropped down on the surface.
Trains have some good features that would allow easy small load transport. We will see.
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I Certainly agree that trains would be extremely valuable in many instances...
However I am concerned with the creation of the track mostly.
Mars just is not smooth enough in real life to have tracks made without the massive infrastructure we take for granted here on earth.... simply filling a ditch on mars seems like it may be an impossible task for our colonists..
I am not sure and probably no one really is, but I think there is a good chance that beneath the shallow layer of dust on mars, it rock hard and impenetrable to anything but explosives or maybe massive earth moving equipment.
I cannot see how they could get railway lines to work on mars until they get some rather big guns...
Maybe a tubular steel one, suspended 5-10 feet off the ground, could be built really light duty like a roller coaster track... Just drill down in the rock for foundations... I suppose that might work....
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Well no one has mentioned Ski Lifts and Cable Cars
Cable car picture--- http://easy-rio.com/rio-sugar_loaf.html
Ski lift picture----http://www.skilifts.org/old/installations.htm
suspended cable cars of Europe picture-----http://europeforvisitors.com/switzaustria/
As far as drilling holes and laying concrete on mars it is easy. Making a construction habitat solely for drilling pole holes and station areas they are built inside in the warm building not in the freezing cold outside.After the concrete is fully cured the cable car pole can be lifted through an open ceiling door designed in the habitat. The habitat can be a permanent work, storage and emergency facility after the construction is finished. The same can be applied to a monorail train system the habitat becomes the monorail station and the monorail lift sections will have a permanent work storage area around each section. The work areas can serve as emergency stations for stranded personal. You could have one strictly for people transport and one for product and raw materials or several types and lines. The cars can be pressurized and heated or not pressurized and heated and the cables can bridge quite a long distance as they often do in Europe. As far as moving off the map zone your problem is solved as you just connect the two areas through a switch station. Very few humans needed to run the cable car in fact it can be done by computer.This solution is low tek and off the shelf as in exists now and is easy to package and ship. Construction habitats are a must anyway.
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I actually had thought significantly about cable cars and the like for use on mars, however, I am fairly certain a martian economy would not be able to create the precision machinery or the very precise grades of metals required for the cables.
I like the idea, because by its nature it negates the severity of the terrain beneath it.. You can go up and over pretty much anything the earth can throw at you... But.... I am really concerned with maintenance, creation, repair, reliability, and capacity.
I just cannot imagine any way this could be implemented over the distances required, but if it could be, and if the precision machinery could be transported and made to work on mars for its creation... and if the maintenance aspects could be overcome.. it could be good... But I really think a tubular steel monorail track or standard track would be more likely.
But I did think about them, and while I may be wrong, I dismissed them as a possibility due to the technical challenges in building one.
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i would like to see more transports but cable cars might be a little hard to build and/or service it