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Mars Challenger V1.0 => MCO Early Discussions => Topic started by: Marco2001 on November 07, 2010, 12:13:59 AM

Title: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Marco2001 on November 07, 2010, 12:13:59 AM

Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants
( Proposal of combining fish tanks and plant bins to make closed-circle aquaponics for the plants and fish. Aquaponics uses no additional water, fertiliser or space )

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3351/3488483907_5e1436dcae.jpg)

Quote
Aquaponics is the integration of fish and hydroponic plant production in a circular system,
where nutrient-rich water is removed from the fish tank to grow plants, which, once cleansed by the plants,
reticulates back to the fish culture where the cycle begins again.

(http://www.sustainablemelbourne.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/minnamurra-gallery-9-300x225.jpg)(http://www.sustainablemelbourne.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/minnamurra_gallery_14-300x225.jpg)(http://www.sustainablemelbourne.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/minnamurra-gallery-6-300x225.jpg)

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Aquaponic systems thus provide a closed resource loop that conserves both organic matter and water.
They are designed for both commercial and domestic use existing at different scales and
are able to provide enough fresh fish and greens to feed a family or more each year.
Examples of aquaponic production in Melbourne include the semi-commercial trial aquaponic system at
CERES Community Environment Park and various household systems able which are purchased from various suppliers.

To find out more about aquaponics visit the CERES website at www.ceres.org.au (http://www.ceres.org.au) or Aquaponics Solutions at www.aquaponic.com.au (http://www.aquaponic.com.au).
This is from “Social Innovations in Victorian Food Systems”, case studies by Ferne Edwards.
http://www.sustainablemelbourne.com/models/aquaponics-collaboration-of-fish-and-greens/ (http://www.sustainablemelbourne.com/models/aquaponics-collaboration-of-fish-and-greens/)

You can reed more about Aquaponics on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics)

(http://www.blueplanetgreenliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TheAquaponicsGuidebook_Art.jpg)

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Aquaponics is aquaculture (the growing of fish) and hydroponics (raising plants without soil) put together. The fish provide nutrients for the bacteria, the bacteria provide food for the plants and the plants clean the water for the fish. It is an old system first engineered by Aztecs in their floating gardens. Although it has ancient roots, aquaponics is just starting to find its place in commercial agriculture.

If we grew only plants or only fish, it would be difficult to not give off some waste products into the environment. By growing both together, almost no waste products need to leave the system. Aquaponics also uses very little water because the water can be used over and over again by the fish and plants.
http://www.floatinggardens.ca/why-aquaponics.php (http://www.floatinggardens.ca/why-aquaponics.php)
Aquaponics diagram: http://www.floatinggardens.ca/cutenews/data/upimages/aquaponics.gif (http://www.floatinggardens.ca/cutenews/data/upimages/aquaponics.gif)

LINK: http://www.growshop.com/hydroponic-systems/aeroponics/aquaponics-revisited.html (http://www.growshop.com/hydroponic-systems/aeroponics/aquaponics-revisited.html)
LINK 2: http://theaquaponicsource.com/hydroponics-improved.php (http://theaquaponicsource.com/hydroponics-improved.php)
LINK 3: http://hort201.tamu.edu/YouthAdventureProgram/Aquaponics/AquaponicsSystem.html (http://hort201.tamu.edu/YouthAdventureProgram/Aquaponics/AquaponicsSystem.html)
There are about couple houndrets of links about aquaponics. No sense is posting more of them here.

I found obout couple of houndrets films about aquaponics on youtube...I reely don't know which one is the best...so go ahead and check them :-)
This is a short clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUHnU2zGYrg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUHnU2zGYrg&feature=related)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3654/3355871655_0e3118ba45.jpg?v=0) (http://www.google.pl/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://www.buildinggreen.com/articleimages/1802/raft.jpg&sa=X&ei=AiDWTPfWNMSfOrDB3fkF&ved=0CAQQ8wc4Qg&usg=AFQjCNH_VY8hMs7KG8ZGFUKkeHgHFKokKw)
(http://www.popsci.com/files/imagecache/article_image_large/files/articles/aquaponicmerry.jpg)

The way I see it - it's perfect for Mars Colony.
Mainly I was thinking that you wouldn't need all that soil that you MUST brought from earth. Water from fish tanks would be enought.
Plant tray would be above of the fish tank - the plants would spread their roots at the fish tank. In most of the articles I've read they uses separate bins for plants and fish and then transfer the water between them. As you can see - I posted the last 3 pictures which use fish tank as the hydroponic bin for plants - so I guess it's possible to make it that way - and it would be desired on mars colony.
The plants grown there would never need fertilizer or water. They would grow idealy, without your intervention (besides the fact, that you have to seed them and harvest them).
So what about the other plant bins?
I think that "nothing". There is a limit at which plants and fish can coexists one-to-another. Fish tank can only support few plants and the same goes for plants - thay can only support one tank. The rest of the plants would be grown normally - with the use of water and fertilizer.
But...since I'am at this topic...I strongly suggest to change the SOIL-cultivation from the bins to HYDROPONIC. Hydroponics has it's obvious advantages...but that's not all! In order to grow few plants you would need to send to mars a few tons of soil! That's crazy!
It's easier to simply use hydroponics. The required water doesn't even need to be send to mars as a "water"...you can send hydrogen (which is like 17 times lighter than water itself?) and synthesize it in-situ. Morover - water in MCO can be drilled-out since the hyperia-base was estabilished on a water-spot. Water in hydroponics can be used-over and over many times, bofore you need to add new one. It holds fertilizer longer, and you can determine what does the plants consume.

Comming back to the topic...
Aquaponics has a few nice features which could be implemented in MCO.
Firstly - it uses power for heating water, pumping water and filtrating water. If the base would have a power-crysis for too long, the fish would start to die. The plant would be intact for a long time, but they would stop growing as you would stop giving them fertilizer.
Secondly - since the fish needs the plants for nutrient recuperation, in order to start a fish colony you need to fisrtly start a plant colony there. But that's not all!
What would happen if you would harvest all the plants away at the same time? The fish would be dead very quickly.
Thirdly - if the water-pump would breake and would not be repaired, both fish and plants would start to die.
Fourthly - the speed of growth both for fish and plants would be corelated. You would need to harvest them about the same time (look at one of the films I posted about that). If you would harvest one of the plants or some of the fish, the other one would suffer.
Fiftly - since the plant bin would be on top of the fish tank there is no need to make the animation of fish swiming from the above. I think some fish needs at least a little light to grow, and becouse of that - the sides of the fish tank shoud be transparent. That would give the player a possibility to "check-on" the state of the fish and plant roots. I think that animating only the sides of the fish tank with swiming fishes is easier (at least - that's what I imagine).

Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Mecanico on November 07, 2010, 09:22:02 AM
Good job, Marco:)
What I can add more for in game. There should be few sensors in everyone tanks: temperature, pH, oxidation level. Player have to check once for some time if readings are good or bad and react (adjusting temperature, flow rate, adding some emergency chemicals for compensating pH or oxidation). Even more, if something is wrong with our tank, player can take a sample of water/fish/plant to bio-lab and check if there is everything OK with bacteria, no foreign bacterias, etc. Findings can be profitable:)
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: profit004 on November 07, 2010, 02:01:20 PM
I have to admit that is really cool,

Just a side note however: not all soil will need to be brought in from earth, as  far as I can tell plants will grow quite well in the decomposing leftovers from other plants, so after a while there should be enough plant, processing (fish guts and bits of plants we don't eat) and human waste material that has composted to grow plants in.   Perhaps some martian soil could even be mixed in... Although I am thinking Styrofoam would be a more likely candidate.   Soil based agriculture would be far less energy intensive than hydroponic, so I am thinking it would be preferred.   Of course that would present a chicken egg scenario so yes, there will have to be some hydroponic agriculture unless this is like the second base on mars and compost soil can be brought in from the first base.


Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: thedubman on November 11, 2010, 12:28:49 PM
Great idea!

As for soil, maybe collecting some of the Mars soil and sterilizing, altering PH etc could work? I think I heard that it would be possible to use some parts of the martian soil for growing, would make for a nice side mission- finding decent soil (sample soils, test samples add or remove chemicals to create a growable soil- go to a good spot, excavate soils, return and treat for use in planters)
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: profit004 on November 11, 2010, 12:52:10 PM
Quote from: thedubman on November 11, 2010, 12:28:49 PM
Great idea!

As for soil, maybe collecting some of the Mars soil and sterilizing, altering PH etc could work? I think I heard that it would be possible to use some parts of the martian soil for growing, would make for a nice side mission- finding decent soil (sample soils, test samples add or remove chemicals to create a growable soil- go to a good spot, excavate soils, return and treat for use in planters)

I can assure you nothing we can do will sterilize the soil more than being blasted by solar radiation and massive temperature swings found on mars =p   But yeah, I would have to believe that martian soil has at least some of the requirements for plant growth, and probably just 1 or 2 compounds that need to be removed in order for earth plants to grow in it when nutrients are added.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: aozeba on November 15, 2010, 11:46:10 PM
Great post! I think technologies like this are going to be extremely important for long haul mars colonies. In the demo game there was a Spirulina algae tank, I would suggest that it could be connected to this system.

My dad works in aquaculture, so I have a bit of experience from playing around in hatcheries and algae rooms as a kid. One thing that I will say is that EVERY algae tank, no matter how advanced, gets dirty at some point and has to be cleaned. The "crud" left over after harvesting an algae tank is usually a waste product that we throw away on earth, but it could be a valuable source of organic matter for the aquaponics system. I would suggest that after harvesting, there is a task of cleaning the crud and flushing it to the aquaponics system.

You could even add some daphnia to the system! Daphnia are little critters that eat algae (and fish poop) and make great fish food! They would be need to be bred in a separate compartment so they don't all get eaten by the fish, so you could have a screened off area where you flush in algae crud to the Daphnia, then once in a while the compartment overflows and sends a few unlucky daphnia to the fish.

(http://www.mblaquaculture.com/assets/images/content/photo_Daphnia_magna.jpg)


 You could also use the Spirulina crud to add organic matter to artificial soil. After oxygen reactive volatiles are taken out, martian regolith should be able to be used in that way.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: pad69 on November 16, 2010, 04:44:56 AM
I love this stuff. great pictures with cometary.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Marco2001 on November 16, 2010, 07:57:05 AM
aozeba - as much as I love the Idea of algae groving on Mars (now it's nearly 90% sure they will be used on Mars due the fact that there are strains extremely resiliant to radiation that produce more oxygen than syntetic-chemical processes) you have to realize that Algae have nothing to do with aquaponics. In fact - this whole system was designes so that there would be no algae of any kind (this is archieved by using filters, UV-lamps, and mainly - by injecting air into the water). Algae kills fish, lowers fertilizer level, and lowers efficiency of the whole system. So in conclusion, mentioning algae as potential usage on Mars is good, but not in aquaponics topic  :)

P.S.
Using daphnia for the purpose of creating fish-food is interesting. I've reed some articles about using worms as a fish food. The idea is that many fish can eat them if they are properly prepared (crusted into dust) and worms as a food source for human have less calory-values than fish. So then if worm could be harvested for humans if needed, but if not - they could be prepared and used as a food for fish, which themselves would give us much more calories. It's even more interesting knowing for a fact that we have worm-beds in MCO.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Hyper on November 16, 2010, 12:30:31 PM
As far as soil goes we will use the Mars dirt but it will have to be contaminated with bacteria to make it work. Soil that can grow food will have to be prepped with worms, bacteria, NPK fertilizer and eventually it will start becomming a growth medium. Compost is our best friend since it will introduce the needed contaminants. Earth dirt in it's simple form is just sand and bits of rock, it's just a holder or binder for the organics.
I want to make the users collect dirt from different areas and make a growth medium for the plants but havent got to that point yet. Worms will be our best friend.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Marco2001 on November 16, 2010, 02:29:01 PM
I must sadly inform that current studies about mars regolith give no doubt that mars soil cannot be used as a growth medium for plants at any stage. It sure would be nice, but it just can't be done with our current technolgy. The problem isn't with it's fertile capability - the martian soil is greate in that field. The problem is with it's chemical composition. There are at least 3 problems with martian soil: high concentration of toxic-metals unseen on Earth, super-high oxidation level compared to those of a bleach and possible martian biological contamination.

 
Quote
Airborne dust and soil could contain trace amounts of hazardous chemicals, including compounds of toxic metals that are known to cause cancer over the long term if inhaled in sufficient quantities. Soil analyses conducted by the Viking missions established maximum possible concentration limits for a few toxic elements based on the detection capabilities of the instruments on the landers (Table 4.2), and Mars Pathfinder measurements established that chromium is present in Mars soil. Although analogous measurements have not been made on airborne dust, soil and dust are commonly assumed to have similar chemical compositions (McSween and Keil, 2000).

The most toxic of all that is present in mars soil is hexavalent chromium.
Quote
Given the severe toxicity and uncertainty of the amount of hexavalent chromium, the committee recommends that NASA conduct an in situ experiment prior to the first human mission to Mars to determine if hexavalent chromium is present in Martian soil and airborne dust at potentially hazardous concentrations.

Quote
Although hexavalent chromium is not immediately harmful when inhaled or ingested, it could potentially cause problems in the future like cancer of the lungs.

Studies have compared moon dust and Martian dust and there were conclusions that the ones in Mars are worse.  Martian soil, according to Stein Sure, an engineering professor at the University of Colorado, will leave burn marks if it comes into contact with your skin. He studies dirt from the moon and Mars for NASA.

There is also arsenic, berylium, asbestos and many other.

Martian soil is full of salts of any kind. They must be removed.
Quote
"We also found a variety of components of salts that we haven't had time to analyze and identify yet, but that include magnesium, sodium, potassium and chloride."

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The mineral content of Martian soil suggests that it would form a sandy, highly acidic, saline soil if enriched with enough water for plant growth. It typically lacks carbonates (resulting in a high inherent acidity), and no ready sources of carbonates appear available in the northern plains of Mars to enrich Martian soils using in situ resources. Its lack of humus and clays also combine to give it a high water flow rate with poor water retention. These factors make it useless for agricultural purposes in its native state. Untreated Martian soil is likely toxic to most crop plants and unsuitable for plant growth as either a fertilized soil or a hydroponic medium.

Quote
Because of its strong oxidizing power, Martian soil acts like concentrated bleach and could burn rubber and plastics.

Another problem is with soil's pH. It can be turned normal, but that requires to add another compounds and buffers.

There is also a problem of preparing transformation of small rocks, minerals and chemical compounds in situ into SOIL (which from definition is a life-supporting structure, beying alive itself. ).

Nevertheless - the problem is still beying discussed, and special probes are beying send to retrieve mars-soil samples for futher studies.

Let me just elaborate that the problem isn't with the technology of turning mars-soil into fertile-soil. The problem is how to do it economicly. Today - if we wished to transform 1 T of mars soil, we would have to bring to Mars 1,5 T of chemical compounds and instruments to do so...and that's pointless. We can still make compost tho'...but it'll take many ears before we could gather enough of it.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: thedubman on November 17, 2010, 04:13:04 PM
Quote from: Marco2001 on November 16, 2010, 02:29:01 PM
I must sadly inform that current studies about mars regolith give no doubt that mars soil cannot be used as a growth medium for plants at any stage. It sure would be nice, but it just can't be done with our current technolgy. The problem isn't with it's fertile capability - the martian soil is greate in that field. The problem is with it's chemical composition. There are at least 3 problems with martian soil: high concentration of toxic-metals unseen on Earth, super-high oxidation level compared to those of a bleach and possible martian biological contamination.

 
Quote

I am sure that it was said there are some growable (after treatment) found on Mars- If I am wrong, then I use My 'Future Technolgy Card'....  :)
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: thedubman on November 17, 2010, 04:14:05 PM
Quote from: Hyper on November 16, 2010, 12:30:31 PM
As far as soil goes we will use the Mars dirt but it will have to be contaminated with bacteria to make it work. Soil that can grow food will have to be prepped with worms, bacteria, NPK fertilizer and eventually it will start becomming a growth medium. Compost is our best friend since it will introduce the needed contaminants. Earth dirt in it's simple form is just sand and bits of rock, it's just a holder or binder for the organics.
I want to make the users collect dirt from different areas and make a growth medium for the plants but havent got to that point yet. Worms will be our best friend.

Great idea!
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: profit004 on November 17, 2010, 08:08:38 PM
Actually, now that In think about it, Marco is really right when it comes to the soils...

There is no "Future technology" besides atomic level manipulation that will result in chlorine becoming carbon and chromium becoming silicon.

I never thought about how contaminated the soil would be but without constant rain to wash the ugly out of it, it makes perfect sense that it would be an amalgam of every thing on earth with just as many heavy metals and unreacted products that would exist on earth if we did not receive constant cleansing rain showers and the continuous biological scrubbing of the soil.

*Just one more earth-centric viewpoint I would need to drop to survive elsewhere in the universe.  It's amazing how much we do not even think about these other planets being alien worlds and just ascribe in a fairly nonsensical way the attributes of our planet on to them.




Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Hyper on November 17, 2010, 10:34:41 PM
I have to disagree about the soil. My friends at Ohio State University Agricultural Institute tell me it's quite doable to make Mars soil work. The experiments they have performed with some of the most poisionious soils here on Earth contaminated with large quantities of things like PCB can be converted into usable dirt after a few growth turns of certain types of weeds. They have taken the ground from an old steel mill that has been contaminated for over 100 years with oils and chemicals from the casting processes as well as asbestos etc and proved they can have viable soil in less than 3 years and that dirt is far more poisionious than anything on Mars. I think the technology exists to convert it at no more cost than time and some good weeds.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: profit004 on November 18, 2010, 02:11:45 PM
Quote from: Hyper on November 17, 2010, 10:34:41 PM
I have to disagree about the soil. My friends at Ohio State University Agricultural Institute tell me it's quite doable to make Mars soil work. The experiments they have performed with some of the most poisionious soils here on Earth contaminated with large quantities of things like PCB can be converted into usable dirt after a few growth turns of certain types of weeds. They have taken the ground from an old steel mill that has been contaminated for over 100 years with oils and chemicals from the casting processes as well as asbestos etc and proved they can have viable soil in less than 3 years and that dirt is far more poisionious than anything on Mars. I think the technology exists to convert it at no more cost than time and some good weeds.

Not to diminish their technological breakthrough as it is amazing, but I would like to see them do the same thing on soil closer to Lye in a closed atmosphere volume of one of the habitats without poisoning the people in it or dissolving everything made of any metal or plastic other than gold.  Of course they might be able to.. Durn humans for all their silliness sometimes do amaze me.

Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: thedubman on November 18, 2010, 05:40:14 PM
How far down would any 'containmation' reach? how about from under rocks? How deep is the 'soil' on Mars, I guess its pretty variable, but I bet theres a few meters of it at the bottom of old washed down ravines etc..
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: aozeba on November 21, 2010, 03:24:07 PM
Quote from: Marco2001 on November 16, 2010, 07:57:05 AM
aozeba - as much as I love the Idea of algae groving on Mars (now it's nearly 90% sure they will be used on Mars due the fact that there are strains extremely resiliant to radiation that produce more oxygen than syntetic-chemical processes) you have to realize that Algae have nothing to do with aquaponics. In fact - this whole system was designes so that there would be no algae of any kind (this is archieved by using filters, UV-lamps, and mainly - by injecting air into the water). Algae kills fish, lowers fertilizer level, and lowers efficiency of the whole system. So in conclusion, mentioning algae as potential usage on Mars is good, but not in aquaponics topic  :)

Yeah that makes sense, you would want to try to avoid getting live algae into your system. The algae crud will also be useful as compost for generating soil, so I'm sure we could find a use for it even if its not aquaponics.

Quote
P.S.
Using daphnia for the purpose of creating fish-food is interesting. I've reed some articles about using worms as a fish food. The idea is that many fish can eat them if they are properly prepared (crusted into dust) and worms as a food source for human have less calory-values than fish. So then if worm could be harvested for humans if needed, but if not - they could be prepared and used as a food for fish, which themselves would give us much more calories. It's even more interesting knowing for a fact that we have worm-beds in MCO.

The cool thing about daphnia as a fish food is that there's no need to grind them up or process them, since they are "bite-sized". Of course if you are trying to keep algae out of the system there's a danger of introducing live algae inside the daphnia's guts. So it might be a good idea to dry them out or freeze them or something first. Luckily there's extremely cold and dry air just outside the station!
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: aozeba on November 21, 2010, 03:45:02 PM
Quote from: Marco2001 on November 16, 2010, 02:29:01 PM
I must sadly inform that current studies about mars regolith give no doubt that mars soil cannot be used as a growth medium for plants at any stage.

The problem with this conclusion is that it underestimates the potential of both natural biology and genetic engineering. There are many examples of extremeophile organisms that thrive in crazy environments with the characteristics described here. Obviously none of them have ever tried living on Mars, but I think that through a combination of bacteria, archaea, plants and fungi it is possible to create a viable soil medium from martian regolith and dust.

Quote
Airborne dust and soil could contain trace amounts of hazardous chemicals, including compounds of toxic metals that are known to cause cancer over the long term if inhaled in sufficient quantities. Soil analyses conducted by the Viking missions established maximum possible concentration limits for a few toxic elements based on the detection capabilities of the instruments on the landers (Table 4.2), and Mars Pathfinder measurements established that chromium is present in Mars soil. Although analogous measurements have not been made on airborne dust, soil and dust are commonly assumed to have similar chemical compositions (McSween and Keil, 2000).

There are several examples of plants that concentrate metals in vacuoles (empty spaces between cells) as a means to survive in high metal environments. By researching these plants and either using them as they are or recombining their genomes it should be able to create plants that store a particular metal in their leaves, flowers, or other harvestable parts of the plant. These plants could then be harvested as a usable source of metals, and the leftover plant parts tilled back into the regolith. After a few generations (which could be less than a year if you use fast growing plants), the levels of toxic metals in the soil would be much reduced, and you could move the soil into the next stage.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: aozeba on November 21, 2010, 05:54:13 PM
Quote from: Marco2001 on November 16, 2010, 02:29:01 PM
Martian soil is full of salts of any kind. They must be removed.
Quote
"We also found a variety of components of salts that we haven't had time to analyze and identify yet, but that include magnesium, sodium, potassium and chloride."

There are two ways to deal with this. One is to try to remove all the salt, the other is to use plants that are salt tolerant or even salt loving. Removing all of the salt would likely take up a huge amount of water, which will be an incredibly valuable resource on mars.

However, many organisms can tolerate huge amounts of salt, and some even require these amounts to survive. Some bacteria do this by storing the salt in special structures (just like with the metals). These could be grown by mixing soil with a little bit of water to make extremely salty water and then harvested, making the mixture less salty with each harvest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halophile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halophile)

Humans actually require some amount of salt as well, making NaCl (sodium chloride) a valuable resource. Magnesium is a trace nutrient required by many organisms as well, and potassium is required by just about all plants and animals. So growing salt loving bacteria and harvesting them could yield useful products in its own right, rather than just being a method for cleaning the salt out of the soil.

Another interesting plant that could be grown in high salt soil is Salicornia. Although it can't grow in as salty a soil as the bacteria, it could be the next stage for the soil after the first cleaning. The plant is edible by people and animals, some species yield oil in their seeds, and because it also stores salt in vacuoles it would extract salt from its growth medium and leave it less salty.

Some people in coastal areas are experimenting with using effluent from aquaculture (shrimp mostly) to fertilize Salicornia. So there's even a possibility of salt-water aquaponics being a part of the soil production system!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicornia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicornia)

Spartina, a common marsh grass, has special glands that extrude salt from their leaves and can be easily scraped off. You could grow it, scrape the leaves once in a while, and compost the dead plants, leaving you with good organic matter and less salt in the soil.

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/marine/pub/seascience/dynamic.html (http://www.dnr.sc.gov/marine/pub/seascience/dynamic.html)

So there are many options in terms of plants and bacteria that you can grow in a highly salty soil, and these can be used to get the salt out, allowing you to grow less tolerant plants in subsequent stages. I picture a long greenhouse with different stages, on one end is closer to raw soil and on the other end is soil that we would actually recognize as such.

Quote
Quote
The mineral content of Martian soil suggests that it would form a sandy, highly acidic, saline soil if enriched with enough water for plant growth. It typically lacks carbonates (resulting in a high inherent acidity), and no ready sources of carbonates appear available in the northern plains of Mars to enrich Martian soils using in situ resources. Its lack of humus and clays also combine to give it a high water flow rate with poor water retention. These factors make it useless for agricultural purposes in its native state. Untreated Martian soil is likely toxic to most crop plants and unsuitable for plant growth as either a fertilized soil or a hydroponic medium.

Quote
Because of its strong oxidizing power, Martian soil acts like concentrated bleach and could burn rubber and plastics.

Another problem is with soil's pH. It can be turned normal, but that requires to add another compounds and buffers.

Acid is a lot more difficult to deal with, but there are Acidophile organisms as well... there is also the possibility of using ash from some other process, since ash is very basic and could neutralize the soil. You could use the spartina from above to make the ash, but the problem is burning things takes oxygen, which is precious and in short supply on mars.


Quote
There is also a problem of preparing transformation of small rocks, minerals and chemical compounds in situ into SOIL (which from definition is a life-supporting structure, beying alive itself. ).
...
Let me just elaborate that the problem isn't with the technology of turning mars-soil into fertile-soil. The problem is how to do it economicly. Today - if we wished to transform 1 T of mars soil, we would have to bring to Mars 1,5 T of chemical compounds and instruments to do so...and that's pointless. We can still make compost tho'...but it'll take many ears before we could gather enough of it.

This is likely to be one of the most important activities for any colony on mars, since without soil things like growing food and making oxygen become hugely expensive industrial processes. Expect soil creation to be a huge, difficult undertaking, but not an impossible one. The good thing about using biology is that you don't have to carry tons and tons of chemicals with you, you can just bring spores or seeds and grow the chemicals you need.

Aquaponics, growing food, making soil, producing oxygen and even mining metals and salts are likely to be tightly connected processes. There are organisms on Earth that can do almost any chemical reaction, and by using some as they are and recombining the genes others we should be able to (relatively) easily make what we need with what we've got. If we try to make a machine for each of these processes individually, though, it will get out of hand pretty fast.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: pad69 on November 24, 2010, 11:45:59 AM
Quote from: Hyper on November 16, 2010, 12:30:31 PM
As far as soil goes we will use the Mars dirt but it will have to be contaminated with bacteria to make it work. Soil that can grow food will have to be prepped with worms, bacteria, NPK fertilizer and eventually it will start becomming a growth medium. Compost is our best friend since it will introduce the needed contaminants. Earth dirt in it's simple form is just sand and bits of rock, it's just a holder or binder for the organics.
I want to make the users collect dirt from different areas and make a growth medium for the plants but havent got to that point yet. Worms will be our best friend.
I agree with you on this one.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: pad69 on November 24, 2010, 11:48:07 AM
Quote from: Hyper on November 17, 2010, 10:34:41 PM
I have to disagree about the soil. My friends at Ohio State University Agricultural Institute tell me it's quite doable to make Mars soil work. The experiments they have performed with some of the most poisionious soils here on Earth contaminated with large quantities of things like PCB can be converted into usable dirt after a few growth turns of certain types of weeds. They have taken the ground from an old steel mill that has been contaminated for over 100 years with oils and chemicals from the casting processes as well as asbestos etc and proved they can have viable soil in less than 3 years and that dirt is far more poisionious than anything on Mars. I think the technology exists to convert it at no more cost than time and some good weeds.
Again I am sticking with you on this one.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Marco2001 on November 24, 2010, 12:20:10 PM
pad69 - science doesn't work this way. Whether you like it or dislike it is totaly irrelevent. You must post your logical arguments, and explain your statement in a way that I can check it and eventualy disprove it. That's why I post links and quotes at every post, that you can check.

For instance - I say it's impossible right now to use microbiological remediation of mars soil becouse there are no microosrganism on earth that we know off that can live in mars soil, becouse mars soil consists of hexavalent chromium, oxidants and trace elemements unseen in earth soil. That is why I state that hyper's friend example is useless, becouse as much as toxic the soil is, it's still earth soil.
If you wish to disaprove my statement, the best way would be to find some articles about microorganism tested for purposes of mars-soil bioremediation (personaly I found lot's of articles about that, becouse that was my science project for graduation).
I state that there are no plants that can live in unprepared mars-soil, and that the chemical-purification proces I posted before us, uses so much chemical compounds and machinery to prepare mars-soil for plant bioremediation to change mars-regolith-soil into regular soil, that it's economicaly unreasonable.
I state that using hydroponics has much advantages over soil growth on mars, that its should be used insted - mainly, it needs no soil, the water is in closed loop, the efficiency is greater. Soil (as posted before) could be created from dead plants-leftovers. The process takes lot of time (up to a decade!) but the total biomass is increasing (becouse you fertilize plants using minerals that you find on mars).
 If combined with a fish farm, hydroponics changes into aquaponics which is self-suficient, and is totaly better than soil-plant growth in almost every way. That is why I propose to use aquaponics with a colaboration with normal hydroponics growth insted of adding complicated economicaly-illogical process of mars soil purification just to make soil-plnt cultivation for no apparrent reason. 
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: profit004 on November 24, 2010, 02:00:16 PM
I am still up in the air about how feasable it is to have something grow in martian soil, I did not realise that there were organisms that could thrive in something like the dead sea and that is fairly interesting to me. 

 However I am more wondering if there are organisms that live in a bottle of drain-o.  In order for me to believe that it is possible to use earth based organisms on martian soil I would need to hear of something that can survive in a highly caustic environment like pure wood ashes or lye.  If I can find or see some examples of things like that then I will sign off on the idea it is possible to bioremediate the soil.

* well I suppose it might be possible to generate massive amounts of hydrochloric acid on mars as well now that I think about it...  That would be a good first step to making the soil tolerable.


Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Marco2001 on November 24, 2010, 02:13:17 PM
Quote from: profit004 on November 24, 2010, 02:00:16 PM
* well I suppose it might be possible to generate massive amounts of hydrochloric acid on mars as well now that I think about it...  That would be a good first step to making the soil tolerable.

But WHY? What's the point in making soil from mars regolith when ther's hydroponics and aquaponics? Why bother?
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: profit004 on November 24, 2010, 02:28:28 PM
Hrm.. Good point..

Why bother indeed...

 Well I suppose there could be reasons like large scale agriculture but yeah I guess it would be completely silly to do it when hydroponics and aquapotics would allow it to occur with far less trouble... I am concerned with their energy use though.  Course generating Hydrochloric acid in volume would require a ton of energy as well *probably way more actually* =/

Yeah.  I see this point and I am giving it to you marco.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: profit004 on November 24, 2010, 02:36:19 PM
Actually now that I think about it, even if a certain plant were discovered that would allow these things in the soil to be neutralized or collected into vacuoles, hydroponics would still be very valuable because you could leech the things from the soil using water and then clear the water through the hydroponic or posibly aquaponic system.

That way you could clean the soil and you would not have to have a plant that could handle the extreme, just as long as you only cleaned it a little at a time. (or added the leechate to the system a little at a time)

That way you could have the benefits of a lightweight hydroponic/aquaponic system with it's immediate setup and availibility and also be prepping soil for low energy use soil based agriculture at the same time

Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: aozeba on November 26, 2010, 02:16:20 AM
Quote from: Marco2001 on November 24, 2010, 02:13:17 PM
Quote from: profit004 on November 24, 2010, 02:00:16 PM
* well I suppose it might be possible to generate massive amounts of hydrochloric acid on mars as well now that I think about it...  That would be a good first step to making the soil tolerable.

But WHY? What's the point in making soil from mars regolith when ther's hydroponics and aquaponics? Why bother?

The why bother is a good question. To me it comes down to what your eventual goals are for a mars colony. If your goal is simply to have a mars science station with a few inhabitants, then aquaponics is the way to go, since a system can be brought in already running and it can provide food for the colony.

My vision for mars is something a bit grander, with science stations eventually giving way to permanent settlement with large scale colonies. Most of these would have aquaponics systems to be sure, but there would also be a need (psychological if nothing else) for plants in the soil that can (mostly) take care of themselves. Water is sure to be scarce on mars, so feeding large colonies is going to require a bit of agriculture, and without soil there is no agriculture. So you have to do both, try to make soil out of regolith and in the meantime make the best aquaponics system you can.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Marco2001 on November 26, 2010, 06:28:06 AM
That seems fairly logical.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: thedubman on November 26, 2010, 02:31:12 PM
What about using geneticly engineered 'space plants' which are able to grow in such soil mediums and maybe in turn convert some of the material to something of use- not too far fetched but its a way of explaining the slight problem of 'bad' soil on Mars..
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: aozeba on November 29, 2010, 12:30:06 PM
That's exactly what I've been suggesting, where we combine the genes from many of the plants and bacteria I described and make ourselves some "space plants". Love the name too! I think they should still be inside the habitat, but with soil from the outside, mixed with some of our compost.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Marco2001 on November 29, 2010, 06:07:29 PM
Ther's a difference between science and fiction.
What your proposing is fiction.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: aozeba on November 30, 2010, 10:40:38 PM
Quote from: Marco2001 on November 29, 2010, 06:07:29 PM
Ther's a difference between science and fiction.
What your proposing is fiction.

Much of current science was science fiction at some time.

What i'm proposing is actually not that far fetched. We have all the pieces, but putting them together will take time. Moving genes from one organism to the other is not that hard, figuring out which genes to move and putting them in the right place so that they will work is the hard part. Currently, most genetically modified plants are a "normal" plant with a single gene added. In the future, those GM plants will have multiple added genes. Thats the only difference between what I am proposing and what has currently been done. As our gene libraries grow, so will the amount of interesting stuff we can get plants to do.

I'm saying that through a combination of chemical, mechanical, and biological treatment, we should eventually be able to make useful materials from martian regolith.

Sorry to get so off topic, but this is exciting stuff!
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: pad69 on December 03, 2010, 12:04:47 AM
Quote from: aozeba on November 30, 2010, 10:40:38 PM
Quote from: Marco2001 on November 29, 2010, 06:07:29 PM
Ther's a difference between science and fiction.
What your proposing is fiction.

Much of current science was science fiction at some time.

What i'm proposing is actually not that far fetched. We have all the pieces, but putting them together will take time. Moving genes from one organism to the other is not that hard, figuring out which genes to move and putting them in the right place so that they will work is the hard part. Currently, most genetically modified plants are a "normal" plant with a single gene added. In the future, those GM plants will have multiple added genes. Thats the only difference between what I am proposing and what has currently been done. As our gene libraries grow, so will the amount of interesting stuff we can get plants to do.

I'm saying that through a combination of chemical, mechanical, and biological treatment, we should eventually be able to make useful materials from martian regolith.

Sorry to get so off topic, but this is exciting stuff!
Doing what you are talking about is and has been done for century's that is why we have so many varieties of fruits,flowers and much more. Also you are right science fiction is now science.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: Rutledge Kuhn on May 31, 2011, 07:25:41 PM
The Aquaponics idea is cool.
Title: Re: Aquaponics – Collaboration of fish and plants - idea
Post by: tommykosh on July 11, 2011, 06:46:07 AM
sorry when i said how many fictions are coming in true from the 1960th to 2011? much of them, so i think there will a way to use the mars dirt. the world planed a mission to mars - so they must protect and give the astronauts the stuff on the way that they can alive on mars for over 1,5 years before they can come back
so we had a simulation of what must the astronauts doing on mars to surfive, so we can check the stuff on researches and can change them a little for the simulation, a german young german college girl find a way to get the heavy and toxic elements out of water and sand, and this news are very old i think 10 years - i don t follow this science, so i can t say if they make it better now.

there will a way to do it and to protect the base - there a ways to make a outside small room to test and clean the martian dirt - so the base was not in danger to be wasted with the stuff from the martian dirt how was in work to get the stuff out. a + is that oxygen is aviable on mars atmosphere ( low but is there ) so it will be possible to handle that stuff.

I must ask you all once again why there is no moon or Mars base? because they are not commercially viable, everyone wants to see only money, so money money money.
why because the money is so great. I shit on money, if I could bring mankind into space. new worlds even if only for the time being here in the solar system. Simply tie the old one left battered earth. It is difficult in space. fatal error for each one makes, but people are there to solve problems. why is not the man on the aerospace? because he is curious and investigated the extreme that he is still only limited to earth, so the jump to the other patients of trotting solar system.
We have developed a global computer networking and also incredible, despite everything, if you look at reports, most nations still draw their own thing through space project. instead of working together to ensure the chances of a good mission is still the problem of eigos I am the best. nagut enough for now, I just wanted to say - there are so many techniques which are now before the ews 50 years was regarded as impossible. I think the problem can be solved, so you should not argue what works and what does not. in the monetary rule is usually the hook.
But let's move on to the 100 tons of chemicals for mars mars dekonaminieren to the rock. why not get it? because it costs money and again nciht productive, which transmit on the Mars test, the chemical can be found maybe a better possibility, is due to the monetary loss is not considered again. yes it is taking no risk.
thinks, wants to send you stranded astronauts to Mars just 6 - 6 to 18 months for people to live on Mars. only 6 people are probably less clear. But back to the problem - a permanent solution needs new directions. include more people (problem on the narrow space and the human social behavior to each other). what may be well known in real όbelst small groups.
I think the point in the Mars simulation may still contain something for future science and propulsion systems are now more advanced than before the year 2000.