HyperKat Support and Tester Forum
Mars Challenger V1.0 => Mars General Discussion => Topic started by: Marco2001 on December 02, 2010, 11:44:49 AM
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Permadeath or Spawndeath
It's a good question, so I started this discussion. There is only one choice: either MCO has a permdeath and avatars reely DO die (which means they'r account is deleted, and they have to start all over again) or allow Spawndeath (limited or unlimited).
Each has it (dis)advantages:
Permadeath
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Very real - the key for a simulator which MCO is.
A good motivation for good work.
Innovation for gaming that has never been seen before.
Requires planing and teamwork. Helping ono another.
Gives a thrill when playing. One bad step and goodbye...
If player has a revard/order it means HE REELY earned it (not unlike in other games, when you retry over and over again)
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Player can die in an unrelated accident - LAG/Bug/Kill.
Team Kills may become a real issue. If someone kills you in rage, you just respawn later. When Permdeath is aplied - that's not possible (I thing killing someone is still a part of the simulation tho' but the killer should be penatilized with a Ban according to the killed-man justice)
If a player die after so much trouble, he might be pissed and quit playing (but doesn't that happen all the time in other games too?)
Playing SINGLE will be a problem, since there will be no-one to help/rescue you.
Spawndeath
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It's easier for noobs.
It's gives you a possibility to learn.
When you die in an accident - you can always get back and play more.
Lag/BUG/Kill is not an issue.
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It's just the same as in other games. No innovation. No reality. No simulation. No threat and currage - just playing, No rewards, No thrill.
Player can die "for FUN".
Player can kill "for FUN" (but that's common in all games)
Personaly I think that MCO is not an Alien-Shooter game and if someone like us will want to play it, he will want something new, something with quality, thrilling and inteligent with lot's of planing....something more like a Simulator. Simulator shoud have a Permdeath option.
I think it will be easy: death = deleting account. And if someone wants to keep play, have to create new account and start from zero (experience, cash?, standings, etc) and travel from Earth to Mars.
(My point of view exactly! Good idea!)
Permadeath or Spawndeath. I like Permadeath but most dont. Most people would choose to have a respawn with some sort of penalty.
Make a switch and let the future server-admin decide, what type of game he wants to offer. Personally i'd prefer the permadeath-method too, because it forces you to plan your actions thoroughly.
atm. when i travel from the base hub to the mining outpost, my rover has at least toolkit, oxygen can and methane can in it to prevent being stuck too far away from the next base :P
edit: just an idea to play around with: make a maximum number of allowed respawns in a game. every death beyond that number is a permadeath.
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I planned on a switch the owner of the game/server can set it as they wish.
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Actually - I'am not sure if that's a good idea. If players will have a choice to have easy/hard mode than what kind penalty will they have in-game as for a simulator? That is just not real, and no-one will want to join a server with Permdeath ON. It's the same as in any other game with Teamkill ON - no one will join a server with that option On becouse....why the hell? I just think that alowing that function will make mora damage to the MCO simulator than the advantages. If you could chose the simulation parameters and set them to EASY (egzample: Spawndeath) with the same ending resoult then what dirrenece would it make for the player? He would chose the easier option for less trouble. But trouble are the essence of MCO! Facing them is the essence of good gameplay in a simulation of a colony on Mars.
I could see it now...two teenagers playing...
"hey look...I dont need a suit to go outside and play!"
"No don't! You'll die!"
<<Dies>>
"Relax...I still have 2 more lives! ;D"
:( :( :(
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there should be some special rewards for playing on a permadeath:on - server ...incentives to play there, you know? ;D
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there should be some special rewards for playing on a permadeath:on - server ...incentives to play there, you know? ;D
To make this discussion going - do you have any sugestions on how to do that? ;)
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hmm for the beginning:
- different high-score lists. Those people, who like to achieve #1 in a high score list will try to do it in every list; the more difficult the game settings for that, the more the show-off-factor ("i played this game in hardcore-mode")
- additional rewards/items for playing "hard mode" - like additional base equipment or additional badges on the EVAs or unlock of additional areas ;)
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Marco argues his own point...priceless...
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I am new to MCO but not new to online gaming and have see some great games wrecked by the minority bad eggs, FPS are a great example die spawn back kill die and so on
Spawndeath to me is not a great idea as i have played games like GRID (car Racing game online) and a lot of players go completely stupid if it means dieing and just spawning back in.
Not a big fan of killing off my player and starting a new name.
maybe reset skill/Rank and/or assets to zero is a better option.
as for accidental killings, how do you control what is accidental or not?
as in most games of that nature weather accidental or not you get punished, maybe loss of 1 rank or something of value to stop and make the player think next time.
if MCO goes to a larger map, players would just drive to the ends of mars and run out of fuel, die leaving the rover behind spawn back in walk till you die spawn back in so on, we would run out of rovers quickly
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in a simulation like this, most hazards don't appear suddenly without a reason or a chance to prepare yourself for. A meteorite which is about to hit the surface could be detectable by an observatory, same for radiation warnings. storms, bad weather could be detectable/predictable by a meteorology station. equipment failure is caused by damaged or not properly maintained equipment.
to summarize it: almost all reasons for death are either predictable or avoidable, which leaves the responsibility for the survival of the colony in the hands of the players. if there is one player, who drives that rover far away and dies there, then it is a "self-made" problem. you can solve it either by social interaction ("Don't do that!") or by a hardcoded mechanism like vote for kick.
In my opinion players doing "stupid things" should be punished for doing them. What happens if you don't do that you can watch in Moon Base Alpha, where every other game there is always someone who draws his fun from spoiling the party of this fellow players.
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Common way to punish for death is a loss of exp. What about Clones? Anyone seen the film "Moon"? Have the ability to clone maybe once every 24-48 hours, that way any experience gained can be stored, and no one wants to loose their exp.
Allot is also dependent on what the game will be. An example of what could happen... the game is a MMORPG, you have the Server set up with Mars as a full planet and different territories and various corporations have funded a base each on Mars. The first Base is the corps landing area and training for new employees of that corp. Once skill/level is high enough they can bid reputation points or whatever to get the rights to set up a base in another territory. At that point they have the choice to make death perm or spawn based, but perm death gives a bonus to mining output which overall leads to faster profits, allowing purchasing of new equipment and overall economic domination of Mars. I think that most would go for the perma-death for the edge over spawners.
Major disadvantage on perma-death is if someone invests a month or two into their avatar, and they die and have to start over.... well they may not bother.
A Variation on the above, its a personal choice, Cloning costs you money and if you don't clone you get a bonus to exp.
Maybe a timer on death in which time you can be revived in, granted you might have to fix the problem first or get them to the base - if not your dead and buried.
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How about Permadeath, but with the possibility of rescue and revival? The way it would work is that if you "lost consciousness" out on the surface, your body would stay there for 24 hours (or however long seems reasonable) and other players could rescue you and bring your character back to life. The person who rescues you should get some sort of huge exp bonus, to encourage rescues.
Of course this would only work if you had your suit on, since anyone stupid enough to walk outside without it deserves permadeath.
Because you lost consciousness and were barely alive when they brought you in, you would have some memory loss "big loss of exp" and the loss of health and other stats that already happens when you re-spawn. The loss needs to be big enough that its not worth it for people to die and get rescued on purpose, though.
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Spawn death is ok but I think the health bar should be slow to build back up. Slow enough you dont want to endure it but yet fast enough to get the player back in the game. That would keep the death to a minimum and still keep the player in the game.
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There is actually one other way this could be handled...
We could go the clone route but have only 1 clone in storage/spare and thereby making one death minor, 2 deaths in a row devastating forcing the player to wait maybe a day real time to have the new clone shipped in from earth/grown.
I do not endorse this idea, as there are problems with it, just throwing it out there.
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I think that Hyper said somewhere that he would put a switch in...
So for hardcore sim fans - permadeath, fail and start all over.
For the rest of us - Spawndeath with some light penalties. Perhaps we must retrieve the tools and gear near our old bodies. Death should have a penalty on the whole colony - that might be a nice way to handle it without breaking everything for everyone. Of course, there better be some spare suits around, if its sitting at the death spot. Another conundrum.
Even 20 years from now - cloning will not be an option. It really is science fiction/farce the way it is used in most games.
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Even 20 years from now - cloning will not be an option. It really is science fiction/farce the way it is used in most games.
Agreed. Sure we could make a copy of a person genetically (which would be like a twin sibling) but we have no way to "copy" someone's mind into the clone.
No one's commented on the rescue idea, is that because we don't like it?
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How about Permadeath, but with the possibility of rescue and revival? The way it would work is that if you "lost consciousness" out on the surface, your body would stay there for 24 hours (or however long seems reasonable) and other players could rescue you and bring your character back to life. The person who rescues you should get some sort of huge exp bonus, to encourage rescues.
Of course this would only work if you had your suit on, since anyone stupid enough to walk outside without it deserves permadeath.
Because you lost consciousness and were barely alive when they brought you in, you would have some memory loss "big loss of exp" and the loss of health and other stats that already happens when you re-spawn. The loss needs to be big enough that its not worth it for people to die and get rescued on purpose, though.
I think this is the best solution posted.
Normaly when an astronaut makes one mistake, he's dead for good. In a game - he would have a chance of suirvival.
There could be several stager of dying, and when you go threw the last one..."goodbye!".
For instance - if a player runs someone over he first goes on the ground beying immobilized. He can call for help ir even help himself using personal med-pack. After few minutes he looses concisnoues, and only his friends can revive him now, and in that state he can be for about 30 min. of real play. After that he looses his vital signs, and in order for his friends to revive him with a future tech. they will need to do CPR and get him to a med-bay for recuperation in bio-chamber with stem-cells. I've seen scetches of future-soldier suit design in which it actually suports life when the soldier is injured. It can get him air, meds, food and pump blod. I think it's possible that in the future space suits will have something like that. If players doesn't help thei'r teemate - he dies for real and he would have to start the game all over again - including naming his avatar.
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How about Permadeath, but with the possibility of rescue and revival? The way it would work is that if you "lost consciousness" out on the surface, your body would stay there for 24 hours (or however long seems reasonable) and other players could rescue you and bring your character back to life. The person who rescues you should get some sort of huge exp bonus, to encourage rescues.
Of course this would only work if you had your suit on, since anyone stupid enough to walk outside without it deserves permadeath.
Because you lost consciousness and were barely alive when they brought you in, you would have some memory loss "big loss of exp" and the loss of health and other stats that already happens when you re-spawn. The loss needs to be big enough that its not worth it for people to die and get rescued on purpose, though.
I think this is the best solution posted.
Yay! Its good to have your support on this one Marco, feels like we've been arguing a lot lately :)
Normaly when an astronaut makes one mistake, he's dead for good. In a game - he would have a chance of suirvival.
There could be several stager of dying, and when you go threw the last one..."goodbye!".
I like the idea of several stages, and the increasing urgency of rescue operations makes for an exciting gameplay mechanic too.
For instance - if a player runs someone over he first goes on the ground beying immobilized. He can call for help ir even help himself using personal med-pack.
So at this stage you can't move but can still call for help (type in the chatbox or use voice commands or any communication protocol Hyper puts in).
In the last version I played, you could not use a medpack or take medicine while in a suit. I would suggest that the suit have some sort of integrated medical reserve, and an automatic needle that could inject things into you (this level of detail doesn't really need to be programmed obviously, but could be used as an explanation for why the suit can heal you).
After few minutes he looses concisnoues, and only his friends can revive him now, and in that state he can be for about 30 min. of real play.
At this stage you can no longer communicate, but your suit can send a prerecorded message once per minute that says [EMERGENCY TRANSMISSION: Andon Zebal lost consciousness Z minutes ago and needs assistance! GPS Coordinates are XXXX YYYY.]
So I'm guessing revival at this stage will simply consist of a suit power/oxygen transfer? Meaning the person can get up and report themselves to sick bay for further assistance.
After that he looses his vital signs, and in order for his friends to revive him with a future tech they will need to do CPR and get him to a med-bay for recuperation in bio-chamber with stem-cells.
At this point, the suit can send out a more adamant message, but only do so every 5 minutes to save power [EMERGENCY TRANSMISSION: SITUATION CRITICAL - ANDON ZEBAL IS IN A LIFE THREATENING CONDITION AND NEEDS ASSISTANCE. GPS COORDINATES ARE XXXX YYYY.]
We would need the ability to pick other players up and carry them. Physically this is no problem since there's the low martian gravity, but I don't know if that would be difficult to program. Maybe the player turns into an item that can be manipulated like other items in the game? You could have them in your inventory, load them into the rover, etc. Maybe even compost if the player ends up dying ;)
I've seen scetches of future-soldier suit design in which it actually suports life when the soldier is injured. It can get him air, meds, food and pump blod. I think it's possible that in the future space suits will have something like that.
I agree.
This is a little further off, but in a Sci-fi book I was reading (The Quiet War, great book by the way) a soldier gets injured and his spacesuit puts him into hibernation mode, lowering his body temperature as low as possible, injecting him with a natural antifreeze, and lowering his heart rate to a few beats per minute. It does this to save power and keep him alive in the event of rescue not happening for a long time.
I would suggest this could be the final stage before permadeath, and the emergency message could go off once every thirty minutes, for 24 hours real time. Surely by now someone will have rescued them. The injured player would not have to be logged on this whole time, since their body is now an item rather than an avatar.
If players doesn't help thei'r teemate - he dies for real and he would have to start the game all over again - including naming his avatar.
The whole idea is to avoid permadeath, but do so in a way that it (relatively) realistic and in keeping with a simulation game.
I would suggest that the earlier and faster the player gets rescued, the bigger the bonus for the players who participate in the rescue. There could even be badges for the fastest rescue, etc.
I would also suggest that if someone is "on duty" (logged on) while the emergency messages are being sent from the suit and they do nothing and the victim dies permanently, the players on duty should get some sort of penalty, like a demotion.
And permadeath should be complete. The player who dies should have to start over just as if they were a new player. We just make it so that it happens only very rarely (which is what NASA tries to do).
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I like the idea of a genetic copy or a clone but the thing is today we have technology to do so but it is seen as a bad idea as somehow it is playing god. How are we sure that we wont have this problem in in the next 20 years[ Just putting it out there ] Im for spawndeath but it should have a penalty
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Something more about reasons of death, especially lags or connection termination. Well, it will be server-side work. When player lost connection with server when outside of base), she/he just disappears and after reconnect should reappear in same point with halved reserves and life from moment of disappear. Personally I see no source of trouble that can be deadly dangerous because of lags.
Perma/spawn - Marco and Aozeba got us best possible resolve.
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I like the idea of a genetic copy or a clone but the thing is today we have technology to do so but it is seen as a bad idea as somehow it is playing god. How are we sure that we wont have this problem in in the next 20 years[ Just putting it out there ] Im for spawndeath but it should have a penalty
We have the technology (almost) to make a genetic copy of a human. However, that copy would not have any of the memories, experience, or even the personality of the original. Not only that, since we don't have the tech to grow humans super fast to adulthood, the clone would start out as a baby just like a normal person.
So, you could make a baby genetic copy, but there's no way to transfer consciousness. So all you would have is a baby who you would have to teach everything to again.
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In keeping to be realistic, and for the intrest of the game- there should be some 'form' of permadeath or penalties..
In a gaming sense and simulation sense, there would be much less of a challenge to go out on the surface, without the risk of a serious penalty if you 'fail'... it would not have the same atmosphere if you thought "oh dear I am about to run out of O2, never mind I just respawn when I die and come back.."
Some of My very first tension filled momements with the sim was planning a route and just making it home, made the whole idea of exploring the Martian surface a challenge as it would/should be in real life situation..
I am into the idea of stages,.. and the idea of reviving fallen players (great mission template) we allready have transfering of o2+power player to player, a revive could be just that, with a cooldown timer for the player who is down.. anything up to an half an hour player is downed and is able to be revived... (downed player could revive him/herself with auto-revive at a cost)
loss of connection wouldnt count, everbody now and again needs to go AFK suddenly for some reason.. sometimes Pc's crash etc.
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there should be some special rewards for playing on a permadeath:on - server ...incentives to play there, you know? ;D
I like Snowpig's idea
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How about Permadeath, but with the possibility of rescue and revival? The way it would work is that if you "lost consciousness" out on the surface, your body would stay there for 24 hours (or however long seems reasonable) and other players could rescue you and bring your character back to life. The person who rescues you should get some sort of huge exp bonus, to encourage rescues.
Of course this would only work if you had your suit on, since anyone stupid enough to walk outside without it deserves permadeath.
Because you lost consciousness and were barely alive when they brought you in, you would have some memory loss "big loss of exp" and the loss of health and other stats that already happens when you re-spawn. The loss needs to be big enough that its not worth it for people to die and get rescued on purpose, though.
I didn't read this one before I read Snowpig's, I like this the best.
EDIT: I like aozeba's second post that improves this idea even further.
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I might have a solution to satisfy everyone. If you die on the server, you can't respawn until a certain delay, either because the server doesn't let you connect for this time, or that you won't "spawn" and will remain as a spectator.
Then it's up the the server admin to chose how long he wants this penality to perdure, 30 seconds? 5 minutes? 3 hours?, maybe have a "-1" setting, aka "forever" for those who want it really hardcore.
The "scoreboard should indicate how long the colony has been up (ingame time that passed with at least one astronaut alive)
but also how long each astronaut has been alive during this "life" and how long they have been on the server total, which will give an idea of how veteran they are on this server and how experienced.
I think an extra setting should be either "respawn to base" or "respawn in space" which would be active as long as 1 or 2 players are already in place, you can roughly chose your insertion point with a drop pod of some kind , you would rely on the rest of the already active team to pick you up so this adds another layer of cooperation: be a jerk, and you will remain marooned in the endless martian plains.
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??? hmmmmm.......well... i am very undecided about this.
fact is, this is not agame.....its a simulation. and i think we all are "playing" it, as if it was real, arent we?
okay....i can only talk for myself, but my girlfriend is always amused, because i get a sort of panic while i am far out and suddenly something dangerous happens. i remember the demo:...i ran out of fuel with the rover and had to walk the rest to the cohab. well...i got swet, because i was afraid of dying.
what i want to say is....do we really need a penalty? there will be players who just mess around like in that Moonbase alpha-video....but they will dissapear or get kick after a while. the sirious players wont need a penelty.....to die after a mistake is a penalty enough... for me,.......
perhaps a small number behind your name would be enough...eg PLAYERXY -4 it shows everybody, that you died for four times.....what a shame!!! ...and this is much easier to programm , i guess...
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To play as a simulation was the main point but the game part of it is about the scores. I think everyone will catch on to how to run the sim but the real challenge will be how well you do. Death as it stands now is just a respawn but carries a points penalty for your overall score. Your advancement in the grand scheme of things will depend on your skills and abilities as well as your score so Death = points off. Run the sim again and try not to die = higher score.