HyperKat Support and Tester Forum
Mars Challenger V1.0 => Mars General Discussion => Topic started by: outzoner on August 29, 2011, 08:15:16 AM
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Stop laughing!!! No- i am not thinking about the "little green men" or somewhat......
its not an idea for this simulation.....
My question is, should NASA give a weapon to mission-commander (pistol)....maybe to get control back if something strange happens like somebody is going Amok or somewhat....
What do you think???
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Tasers and other non lethal weapons perhaps not guns, but then again they are all rocket scientists so i guess if they wanted to make some sort of projectile weapon it wouldn't be that hard for them.
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yes....thats true- but its more something that suddenly happens like an amok-run. if you got the time to construct a weapon with projectils, you need time and material..... that is planned.
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lol so true perhaps a tranquilizer dart gun. i would imagine that the med stores would be full of sedatives and a dart would be less likely to cause damage to the habitat.
However if it was a military run mission then i would expect a weapon (or 2)to be taken
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Weapons? Hell no! The only reason those peeple cooperate together is that they trust each other.
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thats correct.....when everything is fine as planned.....
but suddenly a member gets depressive...or his EVA-suit has got a malfunktion- so airmix is not correct and he gets mad....and tries to blow up the generator unit or something else.....
how can you stop him? maybe your are a thin colonist, and the mad idiot is taller and bigger and starts to destroy the hull of the cohab.....
i know you....and you know me....but there could be a situation, we are not acting like usual.....and the other one has only one possibility to avoid that everybody is killed....to shoot the maniac.....
i like fishs idea. a traquilizer-pistol. nice idea....
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In reality Hypers Mars sims have allways had the basis of No Guns, No Aliens rule..
But it is interesting with what you would do in a situation on Mars as described above for real, how far would you (need to?) go.
I think that the Mars sims will include a commander mode (for host) to be able to kick etc players who purposley mess the game up etc..
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Let's speak theoretically. If indeed there was a weapon needed on Mars Colony to Kill an astronaut (not stun but kill), what weapon would it be?
Obviously not a normall pistol.
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:o @thedubman... look at first entry....this discussion is NO idea for the sim...that wont make sense. its just a general discussion !!
its one of the things i love, that it can make fun without killing or destruction....
@ marco i agree... FISH had two good ideas... a teasergun or a gun with tranquilizerdarts.... both ways just stop the man,they do not kill...
in fact, i would more be afraid of someone is going mad the of a malfunction or something like this. what if you stopped a crewmember? you have to build up a save room. how to get control over him, o get rid of him.... what if he is a real danger and would take every small chance to kill or sabotage? THAT is a real problem...
uuh..... horrible thoughts today.... ???
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Again - what gun would be used to KILL?
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I think the problem is picking a weapon (or ammunition) thats capable of piercing an EVA suite and killing a man/woman without causing to much damage to the habitat>
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Dart gun with a poison maybe?
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Of course, someone snapping is always a possibility.
Nasa does highly intense psych testing on the astronauts and carefully monitors them for long term flights (think space stations terms). That said, may scifi authors have speculated about just such a scenario. I really don't think guns are an option.
Remember that bulkheads are lockable... so it would be feasible to lock someone away for their own safety, but a hell of a challenge. Feeding, bathrooms, etc. would require some kind of serious supervision and getting someone offworld even more so. There are enough tools that one could use as a weapon I suppose, prolly even a hack of the ground penetrating radar. Some meds could be used to keep the "perp" sedated, but long term it's too much a burden on the colony. I am betting at some point in the future, bad guys will be executed through the airlocks, and under some sort of military rules - where the commander has such rights for the good of the colony.
Now Jason on Mars... I smell another horrible sequel.
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nice statement Kraniel... this is exact the point i am thinking of.... if it is a small thing like hystery or panik-attac or something that is caused by a malfunction of lifesupportsystem of your eva, then you can get a man arrested or fixed to his bed untill he is allright again....
but the worst case i s truely a the instand danger ,when someone switched to mad. that is the stuff of scifi-thrillers.....
yes......kraniel is right....the only way could be an execution.... i hate this idea...
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I disagree with execution! (now I understand what this post is about!),.. heavy sedation, to knock them out- then a series of light sedation to keep them calm!
For serious 'crimes' (like a murder/violence)..tranquilise them, use a 'Mars Cyrogenic bed' (Lol!) freeze them up and send them back to earth, the long route home around the sun..
...what about if everyone else got 'Mars madness' and you where the last one 'sane' and had the whole colony after you..
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"...what about if everyone else got 'Mars madness' and you where the last one 'sane' and had the whole colony after you.."
Lol. In this situation i think you would have to question is it the rest of the crew with "mars madness" or just yourself.
Also i don't think a dart gun would do much good (would it pierce an EVA suit with enough force to penetrate the targets flesh and deliver the sedative). Should one of the colonists put on there EVA go out side the base and start pulling out O2 pipes the mission commander would have no choice but to put them down.
Unless they equip the suits with remote kill switches...
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well...pulling of pipes.....
i would prefer the "Marco-method"....i would blow all up with a sabotaged generator...
kind of funny this discussion....
@thedubman: you really want to keep it up if there is one man complete mad....you have to have an eye on him all the time......just one mistake could cause a catastrophe..... but yes....execution is always a bad idea. its a kind of surrender.....
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I think there should be somekind of biochip in the brain to induce them in coma if something like that happens ;D
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I say that there would probably be a lethal firearm stowed on-board with limited ammunition (~2-4 rounds), two crew members (of opposite psychological traits) would both be told how to access it and are made to believe they are the sole person knowledgeable about its presence. It would a fail-safe, just in case one of the two became unstable. Also, any ranking officials on the mission would have to be unaware of the firearm. This is necessary to eliminate the ranking official's opportunity to increase and solidify their power over the rest of the crew.
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::) hey Ilya....i guess its first time i hear your name here...wellcome!
very nice idea.... does something like this allready exist??? never heard of this....
but what happens, if one of the supervisors get mad? he could send the complete team into dreams with one click...
@dani good idea.... but can you really get it save?
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Interesting thread.... Rubber bullets to disable someone and shackles to restrain them I would guess. First landing on the planet would have to include massive mental condition much like Navy Seals. For the game scenario here where the main base would be 50km away, stun em and restrain em till the next transport would be a good guess.
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Thank you Outzoner, yes i am a newbie here ;D
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Somehow i like Ilyas idea with the biochip.....that is really cool....i want something like this for my with with several switches
(Kitchen, bed, OFF, ) that would be cool ;D
this thread goes a bit into my first thread of that kind ,called: "Humans nature"
very interesting to hear the different thoughts about this problem. I hope i will never get in such a situation. i dont want to make such decisions......
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Hmmm....it might not be worth mentioning but in my book, each commander of the base was given a secred orders from Earth that only he knows about. They'r called "dirrectives" and there's 5 of them. Those are the actions that must be taken if the base faces some problem that it cannot overcome.
Dirrective 1 is...well...its basicly self-destruction of the base. Is some vital points of the cohab's supporting structure, there have been placed small pirolytic explosive charges. Why would anyone want to do that? Frankly - not sure. It's just a safety measure (it's always better to have some options). However - it is not desired or required that anyone else than the commander knows about this. Not anyone on Earth and especcialy not anyone who lives there.
Frankly speaking - I got this idea while watching "Doctor Who: The waters of Mars". Anyone else had seen it? The "Water-zombies"?
Dirrective 3 is...suicide. There are suicide pills in the base. No one admits it, but everyone knows it, since suicide pills ware used even in Apollo mission. The main medic knows where they are beeing kept and has the acces. This would be useful if the colonists had no chance whatsoever to survive, and would have the option to chose how to die.
And now, since this topic started...I added:
Dirrective 5 --> the gun.
I don't like the idea of that but I see you'r point Outzoner. Thx for that.
Morover: Ilya Muromets gave an excellent idea, and if you don't have anything against it, I would like to use that in my book. The main medic will be the 2nd person in the base which knows about the dirrectives, and he doesn't know that the commander knows them aswell. Nice storyline.
BTW: I just tried to acces my word file with the dirrectives and..."NO ACCES". WTF?! I smell conspiracy! That didn't happen before...
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Also:
NASA tells astronauts to use tranquilizers for nuts in space
Anupam | Feb 24 2007
Living a lonely life away from the planet is not an easy task as it may look like.
Sometimes astronauts cannot bear this loneliness and get hyperactive. NASA also knows this and they have a procedure to deal with such emergencies.
The procedure includes restraining astronauts with duct tape and injecting them with anti-psychotic drugs like Haldol or even tranquilizers if the scenario is even worse.
The checklist also says that if a astronaut does not cooperate then these drugs can be forcibly given with a shot to the arm, and then the crewmates have to monitor the vital signs of such astronauts.
Astronauts aboard the ISS get to talk to a flight surgeon once a week and once in two weeks to a psychologist. During the remaining time they are on their own and seldom say words that can make other astronauts shoot a tranquilizer dart at them.
Via: boingboing
----> http://www.spacescan.org/page/31/ (http://www.spacescan.org/page/31/)
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.......interesting stuff....
yeah- i heard of those suicide pills.....
well, i guess its not a bad idea. if you know, that there is no way out, why have to go for a long starving with lots of pain...?
by the way- do you know what they use for these pills? it would be interesting.
i cant follow this self-destruct prcedure.... i cant see the reason. why blow up everything?
if there is another mission to mars, the could visit the old base and start some investigations to see what went wrong---maybe use parts of the equiptment?
Its a mars colony--not a military project. so there is no reason for this...
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I believe the pills were initially cyanide (like in WW1 & 2), but then transitioned to some cocktail that included potassium chloride - rather than a fairly painful and messy poisoning. The latter induced some sort coma/sleep followed with a binary cardiac event. I cannot recall where I read that... so could be totally off base.
As to the military project versus colony statement - politically there has always been shared intent between military and scientific application of any space program - and before anyone jumps in here and cries BS, I am speaking from some experience. I think this needs to be carefully addressed in the setup story - is this purely a scientific mission? or is there a cross over bit of intrigue that may create factions in utilizing the resources and assets? If this was an MMO with a fictional backstory - the factions and international spying element could be quite interesting. All that set aside - most "realistic" science fiction sets the scenario with a military-styled organizational structure (even Star Trek). How that overlays long term socially with a more purely scientific mission could a great experiment and interesting debate. We see such success with the International Space Station, but there is still a pecking order - agreed upon through International Treaty and cooperative input.
If this is purely a private venture - then I believe socially this falls back into a military-istic format, but with ever increasing demands on efficiency and commercially viable exploitation. Also - historically and another common SciFi element is that criminals and/or the underclass are often drafted into such projects to be mechanics or just available muscle. There is not currently a role for this type in the game - the assumption being highly skilled and motivated scientists.
To bring all this back onto topic with the OP - whether a purely military structure or a more informal model - I agree that some kind of policy and plan will be played out to address not just a single isolated event (someone going bonkers) or a more insidious initiative (someone intentionally causing failure because of a philosophical difference with the mission or pure terrorism). Regardless - there will be a playbook that some ONE as the leader should follow (or NOT). And failing all - you can assume that some outside entity will come in and take control if the leader catastrophically fails the mission. I am wondering now if there shouldn't be a module that can be converted into a holding cell, with reasonable life-support facility.
- Disable and isolate an individual under (X) conditions through (Y) procedures
- Civil and legal obligations and definition of individual rights off-planet (Earth)
- Hearings/Reviews/Court Martial procedings
- Assignment of punishment, relative to problems
... and so forth. Maybe overkill for a game - practically - the game host boots and bans the offending participant. But just MIGHT add some interesting back story to the game.
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There shouldn't be weapons on Mars, why would there be? There is no such things as aliens, and no reason to fight with each other ;)
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::) sure there is no reason to fight......but i am not thinking of "normal" things like robbery.... its more a situation that your are not thinking of.... like somebody is going Amok...
and thing about the complete situation.... a small group of humans.....totally isolated...after a long time there,your behavior may change...maybe you get psychotic... what about a malfunction in your EVA? you are breathing toxoc gas intead of air and get mad....
its a illusion to think that you can controll always everything.
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I don't know.But should we take weapons if we're starting to colonize Solar system?
Trust to each other - this is the best weapon ;)
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I don't know.But should we take weapons if we're starting to colonize Solar system?
Trust to each other - this is the best weapon ;)
I think this is correct. We cannot stop a madman to kill everyone if he would want to do so. However - we could stop a normal man to turn into a madman in the first place. If we assume some of us will pose a threat to the others, we induce a sistuation when peeple feel insecure and turn crazy in the long-run. The other alternative would be a "Big Brother" 24h monitoring system...and we all know what that leads to.
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......agree with that,marco...
well, am surprised that this thread is still alive.
killing a human is nothing but the last thing you can do. (if nothing else has functioned)
but i think this is rather a question of your position to the value of life, if you know what i mean.
maybe a question of your religion too....but that would take us to far...
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A gentle reduction in pressure if someone is not wearing an EVA suit would be sufficient to safely and effectively render them unconscious.
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This is a deep philosophical question...
By the way, what happened to all of the senior testers(Outzoner, Marco, Profit, etc.) actually... uh... Testing!
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;) hey cheesy..... yes, it is.....
i dont want weapons in the game....it was just a question to think about the human nature....normally we just talk about technical issues.....
yes -you are right- i had a bit trouble here- so i was not present the last tests....i try to it get on the next!!!
i had to get some time between the tests anyway- because when you do the same things again and again- you will get blind for bugs....
i hope next test will start soon....i hope we meet on red planet... :D
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Yeah, I guess you do have a point there... You get so used to seeing bugs that you forget they ARE bugs in the first place!