Author Topic: Most likely transport method  (Read 9643 times)

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profit004

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2010, 07:22:03 PM »
check out the article on aircraft on the red planet site which is extremely relevant and interesting to this discussion.
http://www.redcolony.com




Just as a side note this part of the main site there is wrong unless my recent trip to the power plant outside of Toronto has the wrong information in their brochures:  (I cant help it, I like seeing nuclear power plants they make me feel warm and safe for some reason... They also have a kick ass wind turbine there... I will see if I can find and put up my picture of it.)

Quote
"Among the iron, gold, and other substances that exist on Mars, there is a much more promising material that may be the key to unlock a $60 billion industry and the long-awaited nuclear fusion power: Deuterium. Deuterium�s main application would be as fuel in the nearly waste-free, safe, thermonuclear fusion reactors. "

Deuterium exists in nearly inexhaustible amounts on earth and is easy to procure, store, and transport. We separate it by the ton from seawater and freshwater, and is used in conventional Candu fission nuclear reactors as a neutron moderator in the form of "Heavy water"

Perhaps they mean Helium-3 isotope.. But that is one heck of a mistake to make.

*Edit:Found pictures of the windmill! LOL I <3 my fiancee =) She always seems to take the best pictures*



Yes... that is me standing staring up at the windmill at the fence....


« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 07:30:00 PM by profit004 »

Hyper

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2010, 07:27:06 PM »
Thorium....

profit004

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2010, 07:35:02 PM »
Yeah a thorium fuel cycle reactor would be a lot better than uranium we have currently....

Course honestly might as well "burn" it all...  Shouldn't be hard to modify a thorium reactor based on what I understand of them to accept high level "nuclear waste" as part of their fuel too and achieve nearly 100% activation then burn up of it... Just keep reprocessing it until there are no long life isotopes left..

*That is a mostly snap statement I have nothing to back it up, just to me it looks possible that a thorium reactor could provide a good environment for complete burn up of uranium and plutonium*
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 07:43:00 PM by profit004 »

Utini

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2010, 12:15:33 AM »
For relatively low mass (ceiling of 100 - 150 kg) shock-insensitive packages, lofting from a central location (chemical rocket, mass-driver, linear accelator, etc.) along a sub-orbital path towards the target colony with terminal cushioning being provided by inflatable airbags would be viable, depending on the season, within a hundred or so km of the central location. Greater distance could be accepted during Martian summer due to lower average wind speeds, though increased atmospheric drag would play a detracting factor. However, as you approach and exceed maximum distance or as storms move through the trajectory path, precision drops to unacceptable levels for retrieval in a timely manner.  For more sensitive cargo, adverse weather conditions, and distant destinations, automated freight haulers, albeit with moderate to low maximum speeds, could either be automated or tele-operated along known routes. The DARPA Grand Challenge and and European Land-Robot Trials have demonstrated completely autonomous travel for 500+ km over undeveloped terrain and 150+ km through traffic. Another option would entail one tele-operated or "intelligent" vehicle leading and a convoy of "dumb" vehicles following in the lead vehicles tracks, a.k.a. "Keep 50 m behind the vehicle ahead of you." Of course, for all this we're assuming some sort of communications constellation in orbit.

Just my 2c.

Zaneo

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2010, 10:22:20 PM »
I agree with the lower precision idea, this would allow a cheaper quicker transportation for early colonies. This would also increase the replay on this particular part because it turns it into a mission. This would obviously get repetitive after a while so other modes of transportation could bought or developed.

ENGUS

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2010, 08:22:22 AM »
i like the idea of  shooting it in the air would make for good salvage expeditions lol

Hyper

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2010, 09:36:44 AM »
the transport system has to be bi directional. How are we gona make money if we dont ship things back to the main colony?

Zaneo

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2010, 01:14:38 PM »
It adds a bit of trust aspect into the game. you have to trust that they are either launching at the same time, or they will be launching. When you are first starting off only ship small amounts to build up a trusting relation.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 09:25:57 PM by Zaneo »

Hyper

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2010, 03:53:44 PM »
There will be trucks, probably robotic show up when we have things to ship out or deliveries. Later if our colony is worthy enough we will get trains. Launching missiles around probably wont be an option. Unless things need drop shipped from orbit I see land transport our best option.

Hooke

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 10:46:13 AM »
Since you guys have lots of time on yer hands and we are talking transport, sink your teeth into this one.
The main colony on mars will transport things to our colony and others. Right now I have a little jump jet kinda thing but will that be the method for distance transport for a colony 10 to 50 miles away or more?
Do some research and find this out:
1 is the atmosphere capable of having a blimp? Light gas small jet propulsion
2 is a jump jet practical given the atmosphere? I.E. a hellicopter but instead of blades have it jet powered. I say jet but it wont be a jet it will have to be a propulsion system that carries it's own oxidizer
3 is transport over distance on Mars destined to be a giant truck or rail system?

Inquiring minds need to code it.....


For ground transport to other colonies, there could be the bobcat frontend loader system to fit on the rovers that I mentioned in a previous post to lay road beds, then markers.   Then you could simply set a rover on the road bed following markers by programing.    Radio navigation would be fine, although I am sure that any mission to mars would be preceeeded by a series of satalites that could be re-tasked to GPS.   They dont have to be sophisticated, GPS can be managed with the simple sputnick beep beep beep.  then again the technology already in the game with the map showing where we have shot GPRs and drilled are all infering satalite documentation.   The same exact technology can be used to define the roadbed and program rovers to do a variety of things as well as facilitate remote controlled usage.   Which come to think of it, would make a lot of sense to have a ton of the stuff done outside the hab do-able by remote control.   With a variety of tools installable on the rovers we could do more tasks.   Think KUBOTA tractor here.   Each rover can mount a RCV rig, front end loader, dozer blade, post hole digger, hell FARM implements for planting a variety of plants that can grow right now in the current atmosphere makeup.

profit004

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2010, 09:41:10 PM »
Simple bobcat-front end loader would probably not be able to cope with martian soil.

Unlike earth where water and plants continuously make it finer grained and easy to move, mars has significant rock everywhere, and surrounding craters the the heat of the impact Glassifies the soil.. Which is incredibly hard as well.

Boulders have not been worn down by erosion, and even in the reduced gravity can weigh several earth tons.

Any road building project will likely need explosives or a VERY VERY heavy duty dozer with a high mass blade capable of shattering the rock, and pushing rock formations that weigh more than a semi-truck. *not sure we can build such a dozer with current technology... let alone transport it to mars*

The dozer would also have to be built to resist shocks  from rock sheer that would tear a rover apart the first time it encountered one. IE: Isolated and shock dampened electronics, and a intenrnal combustion engine for power... batteries, electrical motors, RTG's, and pretty much any current technology would die rapidly as it was literally shaken to death and exposed to rapid high/low torque variations.  It would have to be engineered unlike anything else on mars... Built better than a tank...

Lubrication and oils for the joints is also a severe concern as the thin atmosphere will deplete many oils and greases rapidly, the sand particles may be incredibly abrasive(They do not have water to wear them round), and the cold temperatures will cause the metal to be more susceptible to wear.

I imagine tubes of stabilized lithium grease will be a top martian import from earth =/

Anything a bobcat type extension on a rover could clear, any decent martian designed truck could simply drive over.



I agree however with GPS.  It will be on mars.. it is too useful and simple to not have it.  An entire GPS network would only take maybe 12 sats in geostationary, and they would be incredibly simple as you pointed out.

Farm implements are a possibility, but the atmosphere on mars will not sustain earth based plants, except perhaps at the bottom of a deep hole.. Now if you put those plants in a dome and put martian atmosphere at 20X pressure, Things like lichens and mosses probably will grow. *no one really knows for sure*


« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 10:04:30 PM by profit004 »

beo

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2010, 06:07:06 PM »
I like the idea of using some sort of ground transports in MCO.  It's rather obvious that early on, it will involve us driving over rough unprepared terrain.  But, maybe later in the game, there can be provisions for some sort of Dozer Rover and Loader Rover to build a simple dirt road.

A paved road?  Maybe in the later stages.  First off you have to realize we base most of our road surfaces out of products from fossil fuels.  On Mars, our only real alternative would be some type of concrete mix.  Wich will require more Dozers and Loaders and dump-rovers to transport it.  It would also require a cement mill and concrete mixer plant to produce the finished concrete in sufficient quantities.

It would also be a long term, ongoing project that would require team work.

It all sounds fun to me.


Hyper

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2010, 06:37:10 PM »
Only issue with cement on Mars is it's -80c and you need water to make the cement. Since cement never really dries out it will freeze and crack to pieces. There are some additives like calcium you can add but it will be a bit difficult to do that.
The all terrain rovers we have now work great but we could make road paths using markers to tell the users the best way to go to lessen the strain on the rovers.
I would like to think someday we can alter the terrain geometry but that might be a bit out right now.
Thanks for the input Beo keep it up.

beo

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2010, 09:53:37 PM »
LOL, I just finished doing some reading myself and had realized the same thing about the water freezing up!  Oh well, it was just a thought.


thedubman

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Re: Most likely transport method
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2010, 12:27:30 PM »
Well, if you want to talk concrete and freezing,.. I have myself oversaw concrete pours (also known as Ceramic Casting!) of large (ish) scale volumes (100m+ 3) in sub zero temps (well around -10, -15 c ).. for cold pours an accelerator compound is added to speed up curing process, becouse concrete curing is a chemical reaction, opposed to a hydrophillic reaction (ie drying out).. also as concrete cures it gives off a lot of heat, so a bigger pour will give off more heat (the extra heat, combined with the chemical reaction increases curing time). Which is why large scale pours, can cure faster than a small volume pour.. and also why concrete can cure when totally submerged under water, often large scale pours use a series of accelerents and retardants to slow/speed the curing process, to reduce cracking and shrinkage...

I would not expect concrete roads to be placed on Mars,.. the logistics seem to great..I have helped build lots of KM of roads with My RL work, true on Earth and not Mars!
So you would not need, high speed 4 lane type motorways on Mars.. I still think Flat, compacted, frozen (maybe spraying area with water before) regloth, cleared of obstacles  would be more "do-able"- So Agree @ Hyper, its more plausable, to use rovers that are able to navigate the terrian, with a planned, surveyed route.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 01:46:42 PM by thedubman »