Author Topic: Power Systems  (Read 24814 times)

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Marco2001

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2010, 01:15:00 PM »
The best way to store energy is pressurized air :)
The energy input/output efficiency is low (50-70%) but thats beside the point. Normal batteries or other means of energy-storage can gather-up energies for couple hours/days of usage. Compressed air has practicly no limitation on how much energy could be stored, or for how long.

Links ---> http://www.livescience.com/technology/080604-pf-caes.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage
http://www.techbriefs.com/content/view/332/34/
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1977iece.conf..591G

List of links of releated articles (ADS Database): http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-abs_connect?bibcode=1977iece.conf..591G&return_req=no_params&selfeedback=1&use_title=YES&use_kwds=YES&return_req=feedback




When player mines resources using augar he makes a hole inside the ground. When the resource is depleated the drilling hole remains. Player would be able to insert air compressor/generator on top of the drilling hole, just like he did with water pumps in the Demo. The compressor would insert air inside the drilled hole from the resources when you make more electrical power then you need, and use the stored air to power the generator when you need more power (like during the night or Dust storm).
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 01:41:13 PM by Marco2001 »

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

profit004

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2010, 09:42:21 PM »
I do have to admit, besides the dismal efficiency I really like the system.   I can see this being used on earth in major ways if solar and wind took off.


   I wonder if it would work on mars to any degree though.. With 1/100th the atmosphere to compress I am a little concerned it's efficiency would suffer massively. I already know air compressors and the like have to be specially designed for jet aircraft use and that is only like 1/5th of the atmosphere where most of them fly and they have a 600kph wind to scoop up.  *101 Kpa at sea level, 21 kPa at 40K feet, mars only has about 1.1 kPa in its deepest trench.

However if that was solved you are right, even 30% storage efficiency if it was practically unlimited would be good for a several week backup power supply to a reactor or a massive solar array.

thedubman

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2010, 05:23:32 PM »
I would like to see all of those power systems in place... I love the compressed air version..

To note for the sim, if any or alll of those systems are in place, they need to also be there to add an element of need or use. In other words to enable a 'fun'/exiting experince all of those systems would need a failure/repair/maintence- not neccerally all the time but to add an element of danger and/or failure of player input...

...can you imagine doing a emergency shutdown on a reactor (with robonaut????) and/or getting the core transported away fromm site incase of leakage etc.. opposed to switching it on and never having to worry.. just as an example   ;)

How are these systems gained? all at once or when needed? if the sim had an expand as you progress playstyle it would make for an addictive game indeed..

Marco2001

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2010, 06:43:45 PM »
How are these systems gained? all at once or when needed? if the sim had an expand as you progress playstyle it would make for an addictive game indeed..

When it comes to compressed air the answer is simple.
The air-compressed energy can be only done when you actually depleted completely an ore spot.
By mining resources you make small hollows in the ground. Those are the hollows filled with compressed air.
That's how it usualy get's done on Earth. The caves where the air/water is pumped are usually made by nearby mines (like coal-mines).
It is possible to find a nattural hollow in the martian ground but it's not likely.
Also - the air-compressed energy supply should be as near the base as possible. Thus - only artificial holes are good enough.

Proposed compressed-air storage creation scheme:
1. The game starts. No mining in progress. No air-compressed energy. Players have to conserve erergy as possible for a few days (like we do now in MCO).
2. Players starts to look for nearby resources using GPR. They start from the base and move further each day.
3. When players spot the nearest resource ore to the base (red dot :)) they place the Augar ontop.
4. Players start to mine that ore until it's completely hollow (Augar can't drill any more resources). It doesn't matter what kind of resource it is as long as it's close to the base.
5. When the ore is completely mined, players remove the Augar.
6. On top of the Drilling point where the Augar was standing players place the Air compressor/generator. The Air compressor/generator is placed just like the water pump.
Since the martian atmosphere is thicker it's possibe that the compressor would be as small as the Power Generator http://ai.pricegrabber.com/pi/0/18/21/1821010_640.jpg
(it would be of course - properly secured to the ground).
It's also possible that the Air compressor/generator is an equipement of the size of an Augar like this (and is placed with rover like Augar too). http://cdn2.ioffer.com/img/item/141/138/415/Z0Yh.jpg
7. In order to send/receive energy from it, you need to connect it to the base. On the back/front of the base there could be a unwindable electrical wire with max. lenght of 50 m.. Player would need to step close to the electric-wire box and click on it to start dragging it behind him. When he reaches the Air compressor/generator he clicks "Plug electric wire" and simply starts the machine. If the compressor if further than 50 m the player could plug it to the amplifier device to gain another 50 m.
8. The compressor starts to pump air into the hollow. It measures the Psi (preasure) level. When it reaches a certain level (for Mars let's say....1 Psi) the compressor finally starts to pump power inside, when it's aviable. The compressor will stop charging when the preasure reaches critical level (for instance: 10 Psi). If base needs power the compressor stopes charging preasure and changes into generator which gives electric power until the preasure reaches below 1 Psi. The larger the hollow the more time it needs to preasure-up the cave to 1 Psi, but it will also take more time to depreasurize to 1 Psi aswell. In other words - bigger hollows have the capability to hold more air-power.
9. Air compressor/generator will charge every day when it has excess power from the PVP and discharge at night or when needed. At first players still will have to conserve power, but after every day, the situation would improve.
10. Players search the map for bigger, better located resources to change the air-compressor location.
11. In order to switch the compressor to a better location you would first need to safely dispose all of the air inside the hollow. Simply walk to the machine and press "release air" button. It will take a couple of hours/days until the psi will drop to a save level to take the machine off the augar-hole.

*NOTE* If someone were to take the compressor off the hole when it still has air, it would explode killing everyone in tens of meters away.

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

Hyper

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2010, 07:25:32 PM »
The compressed air is a fair idea but you wont be able to contain air in a hollowed out mine the air would just go into the dirt, regolith. You might keep 1 or 2 psi in a enclosed space but to have 100 + psi you need a pressure vessel that is air tight.

Marco2001

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2010, 08:11:27 PM »
The compressed air is a fair idea but you wont be able to contain air in a hollowed out mine the air would just go into the dirt, regolith.

Regolith goes 1-2 m deep on mars (max 40 m). We are mining the resources from permfrost area which are way deeper and solid. It shouldn't be a problem since it's done on earth too. Water at certain deep doesn't boil, sublimate or disperse as a gas to the surrounding rocks becouse of the preasure. Rocks from deeper parts of the martian soil have many air particles trapped inside - only the ones at the top have less air. Morover - we aren't hollowing just anywhere - we make a hole inside the dense raw ore. Some resources (like calcium) are made of big material block. They don't have the potential to disperse the air. 





You might keep 1 or 2 psi in a enclosed space but to have 100 + psi you need a pressure vessel that is air tight.

100 psi is propably to big for Mars conditions and technical capabilities. Even 1 Psi is enough to generate energy for base.

BTW:You just made a big point - we shouldn't make the air condensors at shallow hollows. Minimum 50 m of deep. Deeper = better. Deep = more air preasure we can make inside the hollow.



Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

thedubman

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2010, 04:33:54 PM »
Maybe not compressed 'air' but a gas that is gained from procceses from mining/o2 creation ie carbon dioxide? or simular but would'nt go for breathable air..

BTW- as I pointed out before, is MCO+ (thats what I call MCS,MCdemo,MCOetc) going to be pure simulation or simulation/game??? Can we not bend the rules to allow something to 'work' and get away with it by explaining how it does instead in game-- is there a need to simulate the actual system...??

Marco2001

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2010, 04:47:49 PM »
Maybe not compressed 'air' but a gas that is gained from procceses from mining/o2 creation ie carbon dioxide? or simular but would'nt go for breathable air..

No one suggested that. The compressor preasurizes the martian air which is 95% CO2. Using residual gas after mining is not desired.

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

Hyper

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2010, 05:32:55 PM »
@Marco This will be a game with as much reality as I can make it. Having said that, there is a point at which I have to make things work with the code/art so there will be some question marks in places. For instance someone brought up the subject of going outside without the eva, yeah you will boil out rather fast like 2 min but I extended that for game sake so the noobs could have a chance to get back inside.
Gas storage for power I dont think will be used. Talked to a couple people today about that and they dont think I can hold pressure even in ice or solid granite for very long. The media is too porous for anything to last. They suggested the inside could be filled with a sealer gas first like flat fix for tires and that may work but natural ground would leak pressure.

I think we have enough to get us going, Solar, Nuke and Fuel Cells seem to be the easiest to implement and the most generally accepted methods. The Nuke would be fitted with sterling engines for power gen I belive that would be the way to go. As for maintenance on the Nuke, the stirling generators will need looked after and there may be a time when the thing needs shut down, checked, restart. Also as a job I think we could build a backup nuke over time. The fuel cells seem to have the most interaction with refueling and the requirements of moving them around. Alternate fuels for them may be another way to get some user interaction. Like we can grow some algae and make alcohol for fuel.
Thanks to all for your input.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 05:35:15 PM by Hyper »

Marco2001

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2010, 06:00:42 PM »
What about "Radioisotope thermoelectric generator", RTG?
They are used by NASA and on Earth where you need secured/stable energy supply for 10-20 years.
They don't make a lot of power compared to nuclear, but are easy to use and need no attention.
RTG as a power source are as effective as a power generator of the same size, but does not require fuel.




Radioisotope thermoelectric generator, RTG can be placed anywhere and is safe (becouse the radiation doesn't get out of the casing).
You could pick it up, like a Power Generator, and plug it where you need more power.

NASA has developed a special verison of RTG for colonizing Mars called MMRTG - Multi-Mission Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator
---> http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/38246/1/04-0191.pdf

Quote
"The MMRTG is designed to operate on planetary bodies as
well as in the vacuum of space. At beginning of mission, the
MMRTG is designed to generate a minimum of 110 watts of
power at 28 volts DC, and to have a design life of at least 14
years. The power level was selected to afford the capabilities
of meeting the potential needs of a wider variety of planetary
lander and deep space missions. Potential mission concepts
that could benefit from use of the MMRTG include a Titan
Biological Explorer - with both a balloon mission and a
rover mission, the Mars Science Laboratory (MSL), with a
follow-on Astrobiology Field Laboratory mission and finally
a Neptune / Triton Orbiter mission."
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 06:07:35 PM by Marco2001 »

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

thedubman

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2010, 06:42:35 PM »
I think you will find some of the equipment (planned and/or useable ie auger) allready are fitted with RTG's :)

profit004

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2010, 07:20:25 PM »
I would like to point out a major downside of an RTG compared to a reactor.. Not saying they will not be used and actually I am certain they will be for everything from heating and emergency power in a hab to running communications and the like... however.. they are always on.. Producing heat.

The heat might not seem like a big deal on a planet, but during launch when everything goes up in a nose cone of a rocket, the RTG has to be cooled.  This is not a problem for a small one like less than 100 watts, but when you get to a colony sized 5KW RTG, the heat because it is only 8% efficient is over 50KW's of thermal waste.  ALWAYS ON with no way of turning it off.

Maybe they could launch them inside the fuel tanks somehow with liquid hydrogen to keep it cool...  but it will be a pain to deal with no matter what.

Hyper

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2010, 07:23:20 PM »
Yeah thats another one of them game things. I put in portable RTG which is kinda there already which requires no refueling/maintenance then I have to find something else for people to do. Games kinda need things for players to do so.... I may add some for things like the augers or more permanent equipment. Remember if everything is auto magic then it's not a game it's a movie....

profit004

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2010, 07:26:35 PM »
Worse then a movie because you cannot live vicariously through a passive piece of equipment.  =)

profit004

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Re: Power Systems
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2010, 07:31:02 PM »
RTG's would be good things to allow us to purchase though with in game funds =)

They could probably not power a hab, but they could offset the heating and generate a tiny bit of power if mounted inside on the wall or something.. Maybe design 4 spots specially for mounting of RTG's and players can buy them with personal funds.

Those RTG's could offset heating requirements, maybe with all 4 they could maintain about 18 degree's or something without power.. and they could produce a small amount of power.. maybe keep the lights on or something... Not enough to run the pumps though =)

*That would be balanced AND realistic in my mind =)

* IE like 4x50watt RTG's with a waste heat of around 4x500 watts would be enough to heat a small hab. Most small heaters people use draw about 1500 watts... so 2000 would be just a smidge more than one of the heaters you buy at walmart.... but an RTG does not require a power grid to produce heat =)

* By my current estimates, the batteries hold enough for about 12 hours of habitation heating, and the habs heater should draw about 1700 watts if everything was super perfectly insulated so the batteries by my calcs store about...  20KWh of power.  So from there you can see 200 watts extra power from 4 RTG's would be minimal it is the waste heat that would be more valuable, the extra power would be great for emergency use though.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 07:42:37 PM by profit004 »