Author Topic: The Base  (Read 15325 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hyper

  • Administrator
  • Mission Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1230
Re: The Base
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2013, 02:36:38 PM »
The dirt is part of the radiation barrier.
Everything there will probably be building blocks, panels of various lengths used to build everything. A machine that spits out building components as flat panels, tubes, I beams etc would be the way to go. So parts that assemble into other parts like erector, leggo, kinex etc...
When we get the ability to smelt iron for steel and make that a viable choice for building. So when does this game take place? Do we have steel mills in the game? Have to put it into perspective, game starts at how many years after the first landing? I see a dependency here on when this takes place.
I personally like the raw gritty explorer scenario but I am only the builder..

profit004

  • MCCS Test
  • Mission Commander
  • ******
  • Posts: 418
Re: The Base
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2013, 10:48:02 PM »
The raw gritty explorer scenario works really well for giving the player something to do and not requiring a team of players to feel like it is not completely out of place for a single person to operate the things.   

That said...   If more people were in a colony at once the more developed it can be before it starts feeling weird...   Because if you are in a full martian colony with what looks like room for 10,000 in the middle of the day and no one is there it breaks the immersion.   

I think for now the explorer works... But... You should definitely work on a matching system so that 1-3 people will join your game if you make it public, it is a large time investment probably to make such a thing, but  just one other person would make it feel like a mission, and give a crucial element.   Maybe an auto-join by default the first time you play as well after you customize your avatar.

Hyper

  • Administrator
  • Mission Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1230
Re: The Base
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2013, 11:05:53 AM »
New version will allow dedicated server so groups of people could sign up and run it. Starting a new thread on that...

rditto48801

  • Mission Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 149
  • Wait, this isn't Duna.
Re: The Base
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2013, 06:17:29 PM »
The dirt is part of the radiation barrier.
Everything there will probably be building blocks, panels of various lengths used to build everything. A machine that spits out building components as flat panels, tubes, I beams etc would be the way to go. So parts that assemble into other parts like erector, leggo, kinex etc...
A 3D printer would be  the ideal machine for the task.
I think present concepts from NASA include using 3D printers as a possible means to construct rovers on other worlds. I think the one lunar rover they are working on was made with parts meant be easily produced via a 3D printer.


When we get the ability to smelt iron for steel and make that a viable choice for building. So when does this game take place? Do we have steel mills in the game? Have to put it into perspective, game starts at how many years after the first landing? I see a dependency here on when this takes place.
I personally like the raw gritty explorer scenario but I am only the builder..

The 'gritty explorer' thing, along with videos I saw of the old Mars Colony Online, did make me think of an idea for a sort of 'Phase 0' or 'survey mission'. (my latest overly large post over in the Gameplay thread)


One scenario pops into mind, for how things could be well established, yet still lacking in some way.
Perhaps the initial main base did have some sort of small scale steel melting and alloy producing system, but due to some sort of mishap it was damaged beyond repair (maybe someone outsourced computer components to save money and a supply lander landed in the wrong place without bothering to slow down first).
Perhaps the incident in question damaged multiple large pieces of equipment at the main base, stuff that could not initially be repaired/replaced with what was locally available (maybe they had the capability, but it got wrecked also). The main base would of course have backup systems made up of smaller and less effective equipment that was brought along for the initial colonizing efforts.
The backup (smelting) system would be in place that can operate on limited power, but with very limited capacity, and long charging periods between each batch due to the limited power available from solar, wind and basic nuclear sources.
Due to the size and weight of the equipment, replacements cannot be sent by a 'standard' supply lander.
Due to the initial excitement of colonizing Mars having wore off, Earth is not very enthusiastic and in no hurry to allocate the time and money needed to prep a 'heavy cargo lander' that would be needed to deliver replacement equipment.

That way things can be 'well established' and still have the 'gritty' feel due to basically having arrived to find out the main base has suffered a serious setback at a time when Earth is not really enthusiastic enough to put efforts into sending proper replacement equipment.

This would require some effort to be made to repair or replace the affected system(s).

Option 1: Find a way to 'convince' Earth to send a replacement (requiring a pair of heavy rockets, one to put a 'heavy cargo lander' into orbit, a second to get the 'transit stage' into orbit to actually get the heavy cargo lander to Mars. So expensive and time consuming. Could probably cram several entire resupply missions into the heavy cargo lander, to give an impression of how big and heavy the equipment is)

Option 2: Find a way to develop replacement equipment locally that won't require large amounts of energy, or perhaps can operate partly or mostly via some locally produced 'fuel'.

Option 3: Have R&D efforts to develop a new power system that can generate a sufficient amount of power, such as locally made nuclear reactor, to power the backup system consistently or to otherwise greatly reduce its down time.

Option 4: Generate sizable amounts of materials/resources needed for the main base to fabricate the components needed to get the larger and much more efficient system back online, or to otherwise rebuild it from scratch.

Option 5: Work toward having additional 'backup' systems built and sent to other bases. The other bases would use their own surplus energy to charge up small scale systems for brief periods of time. While not the most efficient option, it would likely be a more easy to reach stop gap measure, and help to decentralize production so problems do not occur should the main base's backup system break down.


They could be cumulative.
Perhaps R&D is able to locally source materials needed to make a nuclear reactor to allow the backup system to operate more consistently, while another base is able to produce materials needed to refit the original damaged system to operate on locally produced 'fuels'. So with time and effort, the player(s) can work toward having the main base actually being more productive, effective and efficient than it was in the first place.

It could also be optional.
So players can choose if they want to start.
Maybe they want to take things easy in a setting where things are well established and ready to go.
Or perhaps a bit more of a challenge and start in a setting where the Mars colony is a bit down on its luck, and in need of expanding its capabilities and rebuilding Earth's interest in the Mars colonizing efforts.
For those who really like a challenge, maybe a setting where something went horribly wrong, and the player is part of a mission to 'reactivate' a previously abandoned Mars colonization effort. A mission requiring even more time, effort and resources to get things going and get the colonizing effort on track, where initially Earth would be hesitant to deploy even a smaller supply craft based on an old rover delivery design with barely enough room for a footlocker full of supplies. An initial goal for this could be to take some leftover pre-fab materials, and get basic food, water and life support production online ASAP at an already prepared site with basics in place (sort of like the present Phase 1 and the Phase 6 based demo, but with more to do/setup/repair/replace). The supplies would be needed to help support initial efforts of the team that drew the short straw and got stuck with trying task of fixing up the run down main base itself. Then after that, the player(s) can start working on expanding their initial meager base, and working toward being able to establish a full base at another location.

Maybe the later might work as a sort setting for a tutorial. A mishap having caused a secondary base to be abandoned and fall into disrepair and then be damaged by a bad storm. The player(s) gets walked through the basics as they have to rebuild the base, getting it fully operational and made self sufficient.
Boldly going forward, 'cause I can't find reverse.

Doctor Watson; Proving that being wrong means being one step closer to being right.

outzoner

  • Mission Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 121
  • new Toys for me!!!
Re: The Base
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2013, 02:04:04 PM »
ha.... a machine that spits out the needed parts....   that what i need here...     yes -that would be great. much place for own ideas how the base should look like and very much place for fatal mistakes--so that will bring up the game-play.

what about the ability to build a kind of train- or monorail vehicle for faster transportation to bases that were already established?
Volunteer for one-way-mission!

profit004

  • MCCS Test
  • Mission Commander
  • ******
  • Posts: 418
Re: The Base
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2013, 02:53:29 PM »
Trains and monorails require huge investments of time, materials, and energy to build on mars.. It is not like earth where area's are relatively flat, mars is like the Swiss alps almost every where.   We would probably not see them until after the first 500K colonists were on mars unless there was a really pressing need.   Autonomous rovers that slowly traveled as electricity from solar panels or something was available would be the most likely, but even bulldozing the  terrain on mars to make dirt roads would be out of our colonists ability's....

http://rack.0.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDEzLzAxLzAzL2ZmL01hcnNTdXJmYWNlLjhmN2I1LmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTk1MHg1MzQjCmUJanBn/94f1affa/672/Mars-Surface.jpg

(Oh yeah those rocks are about .3 to 1 Meter high. Without erosion that we have on earth, almost everything is a boulder there. )

« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 02:55:50 PM by profit004 »

rditto48801

  • Mission Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 149
  • Wait, this isn't Duna.
Re: The Base
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2013, 07:02:20 AM »
I could see a sort of 'train' being possible... of a modified rover that 'controls'/tows a number of self propelled trailers that are basically modified rovers that lack any sort of seating, being mainly flat beds for hauling cargo, cargo containers, etc, connected to each other in a train car linkage type of setup.

As an alternative to roads (or a precursor for roads) might be placing lots and lots and lots more of 'navigational markers' that could be easily followed by manned and automated rovers until actual 'roads' could be made (or plowed) after however many years (or generations) that might take. The makers might also be of use since there are probably won't be much relating to GPS.

Would Thorium be usable for making effective ASRGs or MMRTGs? If so, it would be useful for automated rovers. They would have a little more energy during the day, and wouldn't need to conserve (much if any) energy to prevent from freezing up during the night, and allow them to cover more territory in the same amount of time.

One possible thing for road making.
An MMEV type vehicle with very large 'snow plow'/dozer type blade on the front, and a dedicated nuclear reactor with steam turbines (or at least steam engines, which might be easier to make) driving generators for power, so as to not need absurd amounts of oxygen/methane to fuel it.  The reactor also helps weight the vehicle down so it will have extra traction for pushing stuff around. Although it would probably take a good bit of R&D efforts to get even an effective MMEV type vehicle built and configured for such a task, before even touching on a nuclear powered engine or even just an extra large oxygen/methane fueled engine.

I wonder if a super sized version of the Landmaster (or whatever it was called) from the movie Damnation Alley, with extra high ground clearance, would be able to handle 1m rocks well... At the very least, it would make a cool transport vehicle since the thing is long enough to have an airlock in the back and still have space to sleep people (or carry lots of supplies)
Boldly going forward, 'cause I can't find reverse.

Doctor Watson; Proving that being wrong means being one step closer to being right.

profit004

  • MCCS Test
  • Mission Commander
  • ******
  • Posts: 418
Re: The Base
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2013, 10:37:27 PM »
The problem with bulldozing rovers that would be solid enough to push through the rocky terrain is they would weigh 50 to a 100 tons or more(More like 300 tons because of martian gravity, but it could have weight packs filled with rocks or something for the traction needed but the actual blades and dozer unit would need massive reinforcing to break the rock formations so not less than 50 tons of structural weight).   Sending that kind of mass from earth is simply not feasible.   The mars colonists could build one or one could be fabricated in space if we had a space based industry of course, but it just really could not be sent from earth.   

Remember these bulldozers would need to be built to a massive strength compared to earth, because on earth there are few rock formations, and bulldozers almost always push material that is loose either originally or blasted that way by explosives.   Neither would be likely on mars.


rditto48801

  • Mission Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 149
  • Wait, this isn't Duna.
Re: The Base
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2013, 04:45:16 PM »
They make 'big' bulldozers already.
The Caterpillar D10 and D11. The D10 is 90 tons, the D11 is 120 tons.
<HYPER> Glad you are paying the fuel bill to get it there. Oh and diesel engines dont run well on Mars.

To quote Scrooge McDuck, "Work smarter, not harder."
That said, why move big rocks when you can move smaller rocks?

Tools that come to mind.
Excavators (even if not that large) that can use tools to help break up the rocks. Stuff like jackhammers.
Drills with small explosive charges like used in quarrying/mining, adapted for Mars .
Go old fashioned (if there is water to spare), crack rocks a little, pour in water, let the freezing water do its trick, heat up rock with something like waste heat from an ASRG/MMRTG, rinse and repeat until rock splits or has more manageable chunks fall off.

It simply comes down to adapting what is available, to achieve the maximum effect for minimal effort.

It seems like it should be possible to scan every last part and component into a digital format, so 3D printers could assemble the majority of the 'solid' parts on Mars, only shipping what has to be made on Earth, and any needed materials (such as specific alloys?) that cannot be produced/created on Mars.

Based on  the Mars Constellation concept, they 'could' move a lot of stuff to Mars, by sending up the payload and the actual drive sections separately.
The Ares V is to have a payload capacity of 188 tons to Low Earth Orbit.
The Shuttle Derived Heavy Life Launch Vehicle  was to have a potential payload capacity of around 90 tons max.
The Skylon based 'Mars Mission' involves a similar concept, except stuff is put into orbit in smaller packages and assembled in a sort of small 'space dry dock'. It could be useful for the transit stage, to get the same amount of mass to Mars with a bit less fuel, while also throwing a reusable 'first stage' into the mix.

Since Mars is like 1/3 gravity of Earth, shouldn't landing a heavy payload be a 'little' easier than getting it up into space in the first place?

Otherwise, just adapt ATHLETE concept for Mars, since it can just 'step over' larger rocks.  Have a few of them play 'follow the leader' for an improvised road(less) train... worry about the road idea some other time when manpower and resources are expanded enough to make it more feasible, or sooner in areas that might not be horribly cluttered with large boulders...

I wonder if boring machines would be feasible in any way on Mars... digging under the rocks might not be any slower than trying to move them in the first place... but then comes the question of what the heck would be used to reinforce the walls of the resulting tunnels...
 ::)
Or maybe adapt a tunnel borer based design on a smaller scale with multiple smaller units side by side and and just 'mine' their way through big boulders on the surface? Then you just got a lot of smaller rocks and gravel and such to move. Not exactly fast, but it might work...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 05:05:27 PM by Hyper »
Boldly going forward, 'cause I can't find reverse.

Doctor Watson; Proving that being wrong means being one step closer to being right.

profit004

  • MCCS Test
  • Mission Commander
  • ******
  • Posts: 418
Re: The Base
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2013, 11:37:38 PM »
I am really surprised you did not make the next leap yourself.  Do you hear what you are saying?  Taking a jackhammer (Something that requires massive energy to run) and manually breaking up huge area's of terrain?   Drills with explosive charges?  How many hundreds of tons of explosives would we need to send?   Freeze weathering rocks?   

  I mean all these things are possible but at what expense of manpower and logistics.  Hell even the bulldozer from earth is possible, but what is the realistic chance a space agency is going to sink 2 billion dollars to send one to mars? (The D11 is insufficient for the task since it is not built strong enough for shearing rocks from bedrock, even if it had a hydraulic thumper to break them up)

Automated rovers are of course possible as well, and I think likely, but I was discounting the idea's that roads would be simple to build, not that the terrain would be traverseable with the right design.     

As for boring machines, they weigh 15,000 tons + and the heads themselves which would need to be replaced every few hundred feet  can weigh 50 tons in themselves.   They also require an immense power plant to run them.

Oh yeah, landing the weight I didn't even consider, it is problematic, but nothing crazy, it is all getting it off earth and to mars where the expense is.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 11:39:50 PM by profit004 »

Hyper

  • Administrator
  • Mission Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1230
Re: The Base
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2013, 10:52:25 AM »
Have to agree profit. People have a hard time understanding the problems we will face on Mars. I can see moving some surface rocks out of the way and making a pathway (road) but any large material movement will be almost impossible. Again we have to go back to what year this takes place. 2240 ok I can see some heavy equipment there but I am sure it will all run off electric much like the power shovels of today. Will there be nuke power? Sure at some time in the future and I do hope it will be a molten salt thorium reactor. I see micro reactors the norm. Look at the first submarines or destroyers. Small light reactors will be ganged for our needs.
Lots of research....

rditto48801

  • Mission Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 149
  • Wait, this isn't Duna.
Re: The Base
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2013, 06:30:59 PM »
I was trying to think outside of the box, with a basic idea to adapt stuff where needed.
Not simply taking something from Earth, and ship it to Mars.
Also, going 'steam punk' has come to mind...

Would it be possible to adapt steam engines, using an enclosed system to minimize water loss, to drive generators for a nuclear power source? It seems like it might be useful as an easier to make and maintain option to steam turbines. At least for building nuclear reactors locally on Mars until more complex and precise stuff can be reliably made.
Would a basic steam engine of small size be a viable source of mechanical energy, or be enough to power generators for at least 'hand held' tools, maybe using something similar to a hydraulic of pneumatic system? Or would those be impractical on Mars and make mainly electrical systems a better choice?

Water expands when it freezes. If I am not mistaken, that was applied in stone quarries in ancient times to help break loose slabs of rock. I think it is also behind stuff like pot holes in roads.

Dozers, take two:
Make them hybrid electrics, or just electric. Provide power via oxygen/methane generators, or nuke power.  Or would an oxygen/methane generator be to inefficient to be up-scalled or used in groups to produce sufficient energy to compare to at least a several hundred horsepower diesel engine?
Maybe some sort of dozer (or other 'utility') like vehicle that is like a train, multiple wheeled or tracked 'pusher' vehicles, for maximum traction, helping to push the main vehicle. The pusher vehicles could include ASRGs and such for both weight and power. Or 'reverse' it for pulling heavy loads...
Don't need to win any races, maybe just something that is a multiple purpose system for moving heavy stuff, be they rocks or large pieces of equipment.

Drilling and explosives, take two.
Isn't placing explosives into small holes supposed to maximum how much force is applied to rock while using as little explosives as possible?
I know with doing it the not so effective way, you can just pile up explosives, and do things like make cement trucks 'vanish' and not crack much rock.
Could locally sourced elements be used to make effective explosives needed just for 'difficult' jobs?
Would thermal shock be usable, applying something like thermite to the usually 'freezing cold' rocks?

Boring machines, take two.
As I said, adapting them to a much smaller design.
Don't need to make a Chunnel or anything, just a few small scale machines, maybe each no wider than a minivan, working side by side, to deal with spots that can't just have rocks pushed aside. Locally sourced metals and recycling used drill heads. Again, less about winning races and more about being a possible option.

Jackhammers via steam power?
Like a steam powered bunker pile or whatever the are called. Not fast, but better than nothing. Just need to keep a supply of spare water and pile bunker rods on hand, and recycle used ones to make new ones. A long term goal at best. Could either be done with building up steam pressure for a single 'shot' at a time, or use a basic steam engine driving some sort of hydraulic/pneumatic system for a handle held system, or directly via mechanical energy for a vehicle mounted system?


Not that any of it matters beyond trying to approach problems from different angles. (it gives me something 'creative' to do...)
Just sticking with something like NASA's ATHLETE concept kind of makes much of it a moot point anyways... (the whole 'go around/over rather than through' thing...)

Random stray idea  for smelting.
Adapting hydrogen/oxygen based 'rockets engines'. Just need to figure out how to recapture the 'exhaust' and condense it back down for another run through a separator... well, more crazy then practical, but it's an idea for the 'out of the box' point of view.

Would using the same basic components used for making structures, be adaptable to make small bridges or short raised roadways over terrain features that would otherwise require heavy equipment and a lot of time to move/fill/overcome? Such as terrain features that would require a very long time to make a detour to go around?
Boldly going forward, 'cause I can't find reverse.

Doctor Watson; Proving that being wrong means being one step closer to being right.

profit004

  • MCCS Test
  • Mission Commander
  • ******
  • Posts: 418
Re: The Base
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2013, 09:08:34 PM »
I was trying to think outside of the box, with a basic idea to adapt stuff where needed.
Not simply taking something from Earth, and ship it to Mars.
Also, going 'steam punk' has come to mind...

Would it be possible to adapt steam engines, using an enclosed system to minimize water loss, to drive generators for a nuclear power source? It seems like it might be useful as an easier to make and maintain option to steam turbines. At least for building nuclear reactors locally on Mars until more complex and precise stuff can be reliably made.
Would a basic steam engine of small size be a viable source of mechanical energy, or be enough to power generators for at least 'hand held' tools, maybe using something similar to a hydraulic of pneumatic system? Or would those be impractical on Mars and make mainly electrical systems a better choice?

Steam tools would probably not be viable, but pneumatic ones probably would work.  The nuclear power sources probably will use gas turbines/Stirlings not steam

Water expands when it freezes. If I am not mistaken, that was applied in stone quarries in ancient times to help break loose slabs of rock. I think it is also behind stuff like pot holes in roads.

As I said, it was possible, but water and the manpower to do it on a large scale will be in short suppy

Dozers, take two:
Make them hybrid electrics, or just electric. Provide power via oxygen/methane generators, or nuke power.  Or would an oxygen/methane generator be to inefficient to be up-scalled or used in groups to produce sufficient energy to compare to at least a several hundred horsepower diesel engine?
Maybe some sort of dozer (or other 'utility') like vehicle that is like a train, multiple wheeled or tracked 'pusher' vehicles, for maximum traction, helping to push the main vehicle. The pusher vehicles could include ASRGs and such for both weight and power. Or 'reverse' it for pulling heavy loads...
Don't need to win any races, maybe just something that is a multiple purpose system for moving heavy stuff, be they rocks or large pieces of equipment.

The power source to me was always a minor consideration next to the problem of transporting it to mars when it is going to have to weigh so much

Drilling and explosives, take two.
Isn't placing explosives into small holes supposed to maximum how much force is applied to rock while using as little explosives as possible?
I know with doing it the not so effective way, you can just pile up explosives, and do things like make cement trucks 'vanish' and not crack much rock.
Could locally sourced elements be used to make effective explosives needed just for 'difficult' jobs?
Would thermal shock be usable, applying something like thermite to the usually 'freezing cold' rocks?

I dont think thermal shock would work, and I assumed that they would use the drill/detonate method already since there is no way to pile explosives on top of rock and get the desired effect.

Boring machines, take two.
As I said, adapting them to a much smaller design.
Don't need to make a Chunnel or anything, just a few small scale machines, maybe each no wider than a minivan, working side by side, to deal with spots that can't just have rocks pushed aside. Locally sourced metals and recycling used drill heads. Again, less about winning races and more about being a possible option.

Once again possible, but not viable in the near term

Jackhammers via steam power?
Like a steam powered bunker pile or whatever the are called. Not fast, but better than nothing. Just need to keep a supply of spare water and pile bunker rods on hand, and recycle used ones to make new ones. A long term goal at best. Could either be done with building up steam pressure for a single 'shot' at a time, or use a basic steam engine driving some sort of hydraulic/pneumatic system for a handle held system, or directly via mechanical energy for a vehicle mounted system?

There is no reason a giant thumper machine could not be built that breaks rocks up, but it is just impractical for small colonies to be expected to source the hundred tons of metals and the like.

Not that any of it matters beyond trying to approach problems from different angles. (it gives me something 'creative' to do...)
Just sticking with something like NASA's ATHLETE concept kind of makes much of it a moot point anyways... (the whole 'go around/over rather than through' thing...)

Random stray idea  for smelting.
Adapting hydrogen/oxygen based 'rockets engines'. Just need to figure out how to recapture the 'exhaust' and condense it back down for another run through a separator... well, more crazy then practical, but it's an idea for the 'out of the box' point of view.

In order for rocket engines to work, the propellent must exhaust outside of a vehicle.  It can not be recaptured without it pushing the vehicle down as hard as it is pushing it up.

Would using the same basic components used for making structures, be adaptable to make small bridges or short raised roadways over terrain features that would otherwise require heavy equipment and a lot of time to move/fill/overcome? Such as terrain features that would require a very long time to make a detour to go around?

I am certain for some of them, but remember some of the terrain features are like grand canyon times 5 and make mount Everest look like a pile of dirt. /color]


rditto48801

  • Mission Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 149
  • Wait, this isn't Duna.
Re: The Base
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2013, 08:00:01 PM »
With the progress being made on 3D Printing technology (some variations could make even food or medicines), it seems like a lot of needed components would be able to be produced locally. All that is needed is to get the resources, the main of which would be whatever would be used for the framework/structure of any 'heavy duty' vehicles. That would minimize what needs to be shipped from Earth to any rare elements or more specialized components that cannot  be acquired/produced on Mars.


I am guessing a giant 'condenser coil' for rocket exhaust is out of the question. What of many tiny 'burners' focused on a central unit, with a 'space' separating the burners from the walls of whatever container the to be heated materials are in, with some sort of condenser system and pressure relief valves to try and recapture at least some of the 'exhaust'? But I guess I am straying more into the realm of 'mad scientist' (again)

It is to bad steam might not be viable for use on Mars.

I wonder if modern developments for submarines (be they diesel-electric, nuclear, or air-independent) would be of much use on Mars outside of helping to house lots of people in small places for extended periods of time.
Boldly going forward, 'cause I can't find reverse.

Doctor Watson; Proving that being wrong means being one step closer to being right.

profit004

  • MCCS Test
  • Mission Commander
  • ******
  • Posts: 418
Re: The Base
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2013, 08:20:51 PM »
With the progress being made on 3D Printing technology (some variations could make even food or medicines), it seems like a lot of needed components would be able to be produced locally. All that is needed is to get the resources, the main of which would be whatever would be used for the framework/structure of any 'heavy duty' vehicles. That would minimize what needs to be shipped from Earth to any rare elements or more specialized components that cannot  be acquired/produced on Mars.

That is a far more likely scenario, but still, do you have any idea on how to find a large source of iron ore, break it loose, transport it, smelt it, and create steel on mars?  I admit they will probably do it before long, but do you really think they will do it to any volume.   A 10 kilo block of steel will not cut it, we are talking blocks of steel weighing several metric tons.  Even if they can print them in those shapes do you really think people on mars even with the nice reduction in gravity can machine assemble and machine things like that in a frontier environment?   Sure after they have a sizable industrial base, but not until then. 

I am guessing a giant 'condenser coil' for rocket exhaust is out of the question. What of many tiny 'burners' focused on a central unit, with a 'space' separating the burners from the walls of whatever container the to be heated materials are in, with some sort of condenser system and pressure relief valves to try and recapture at least some of the 'exhaust'? But I guess I am straying more into the realm of 'mad scientist' (again)

Sorry, no, physics still applies and any capture will cause loss of propulsion. In order for the exhaust gasses to be collected, they would have to be collected after the atmosphere or the planet has dissipated their inertia and energy.

It is to bad steam might not be viable for use on Mars.

Not sad at all, it changes very little,  and it is viable, just not in the ways you mentioned yet. 

I wonder if modern developments for submarines (be they diesel-electric, nuclear, or air-independent) would be of much use on Mars outside of helping to house lots of people in small places for extended periods of time.

Certainly some, just as modern space exploration has helped create submarines that are able to run longer, quieter, faster, with more crew if desired. When you brighten the light of science anywhere, it brightens it everywhere.


« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:24:48 PM by profit004 »