Author Topic: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea  (Read 3603 times)

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Marco2001

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IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« on: November 23, 2010, 04:09:35 PM »

IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit
(A proposal to add infrared vision used by player when it's too dark, that would use EVA-suit power and would be activated by "N" button...and a polarized filter that is used when it's to bright when the Sun is at zenith, activated by "M" button, that doesn't use power)



On EVA-suits helmet there are a fiew interesting things, like: 4 lights, a camera and a filter.
We have the ability to turn-on the suit's light by pressing CTRL+L.
(BTW: The light doesn't oryginate from anywhere on EVA-s suit. It's just there around the player. There should be 4 lights on EVA-suit helmet that changes texture to glowing when player activates the light).

What I propose is to add the other two functions (that BTW are used by astronauts on ISS today)
The first one: InfraRed/Night Vision Camera is used when it's too dark or when ther's a dust storm. It allows you to see a bit further in those conditions. IR camera uses power from the suit, but it's worth it.
The view when IR camera is activated may look like this: http://www.google.pl/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/297081_473fde9522.jpg&sa=X&ei=7CnsTNjpFs2dOpes5MgB&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNFcCdqbfYB3jso-izq2cvyGWjAefQ
NASA IR Camera suit panel: http://www.google.pl/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/images/content/122019main_eva_ircamera.jpg&sa=X&ei=khzsTM_zI8WgOtmG-cgB&ved=0CAQQ8wc4Eg&usg=AFQjCNGytdzh1KO4vVJV93T-m4DADXhSxw
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A demonstration unit, the EVA IR Camera, shown here in use by an astronaut, is a developmental piece of hardware used by an astronaut outside the shuttle to locate damage to the Space Shuttle exterior using infrared technology. This was a joint effort between NASA Goddard and NASA Langley Research Center.
---> http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/images/content/121968main_astronaut_IRcamera.jpg


The same would go with the polarization filter. Becouse mars has a small atmosphere, when sun is reaching zenith it can get very bright - just like in orbit. Astronauts don't look stright at the Sun - they cover they'r helmet with a polaryzation filter, that make's the light dimmer.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 11:00:18 PM by Hyper »

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

profit004

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 07:40:59 PM »
You are making the assumption that they are going to use high tech suits on mars.....

I think it is almost as likely that the suits will be decidedly low tech by our current space suits but be far more ruggedized and take advantage of advances in reliability more than anything.

I have a suspicion that anything requiring significant maintenance and with a high chance of breaking down will not make it into martian space suits...

camera's, HUD's  and stuff like that which requires specialized umbilical attachments between the suit and the helmet will probably be scrapped in favor of simpler cheaper construction.

* I am also thinking the lights will be moved to the shoulders or chest area. 

Hyper

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 07:54:08 PM »
Have to agree with Prof. If I was running the show I would want the first group to be as low tech and easy maintenance as possible. But I have some plans for the game as far as the technology goes. As you progress through the construction of the colony new equipment will be available. I will see what effects I can add for the EVA suits when I get there.

Marco2001

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 07:59:07 PM »
What is "hi-tech" about polarise filter and IR camera?

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profit004

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 10:01:00 PM »
While nothing is decidedly high tech about the camera's they are fairly fragile and would need to be excessively ruggedized to withstand constant beating I believe martian space suits will be receiving.  Also the power and data attachment to the suit from the helmet I believe will be a constant source of annoyance.

A polarization filter is kinda likely maybe.. That can be built into the helmet and a simple lithium battery could power it for years.  I have seen them on welding helmets and they seem fairly reliable, but I am unsure if that is really the case, I will have to ask my friend in the welding industry what their failure rates are.

High tech was the wrong thing to say, what I meant was, I believe the suits will not have gagets, they will have strength and reliability.  Made with high tech manufacturing process but remaining simple to maintain, keep clean and service.   Nothing there that does not have to be. 



pad69

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2010, 12:00:28 PM »
Have to agree with Prof. If I was running the show I would want the first group to be as low tech and easy maintenance as possible. But I have some plans for the game as far as the technology goes. As you progress through the construction of the colony new equipment will be available. I will see what effects I can add for the EVA suits when I get there.
Nice!
Murphy's Law applies "Anything that can possibly go wrong, does." or some say it this way "If anything can go wrong, it will.

Marco2001

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 01:14:48 PM »
A polarization filter is kinda likely maybe..

Show me one space-suit that doesn't have a polarysation filter  ;)

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That can be built into the helmet and a simple lithium battery could power it for years.  I have seen them on welding helmets and they seem fairly reliable, but I am unsure if that is really the case, I will have to ask my friend in the welding industry what their failure rates are.

No. The polarysation filter is a filter...it's a plastic membrane that an astronauts lovers when it's to bright. It polaryzes the light in one direction. It doesn't use power at all. The welding helmets uses liquid-crystal auto-darkening system, which uses power to change crystal configuration to let less sunlight get by. They are BTW, reely reliable.

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/124264main_fd7_s114e5979_high.jpg

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High tech was the wrong thing to say, what I meant was, I believe the suits will not have gagets, they will have strength and reliability.  Made with high tech manufacturing process but remaining simple to maintain, keep clean and service.   Nothing there that does not have to be.  
I disagree. You can use simplified computers, engines, electronics and everything else...but the suit MUST be the state-of-art  equipement that help you deal with unseen problems. Tell me, what would you like to simplify? Life Support? Battery suply? Personal computer for communication? Lights? If something other like an IR camera will be used, and will breake how will it put the life of an astronaut in danger? On the other hand - how would the astronaut be endangered without an IR camera?
The thing I am trying to say is that space-suit is already super-advanced as it is, and adding non-essential equipement will not lower your chances of survival but make them higher.
Will adding an emergency SOS transponder to your suit will lower your chances of survival becouse you need more resources to maintain that suit?
Will adding GPS to let you know where you are will lover your chances of survival?
Will adding external suit-to-suit power/oxygen port will lower your chances of survival?
Will adding hud with a compas and a map on your helmet will lower your chances of survival during dust storm, which accurs 50% time on mars?
And if the suit is dammaged will the base-crew be able to rapair the suit at all?
I think I made my point.

BTW: the mars suit is currently beying tested. I will post how it looks very soon. There is no need to discuss here over something that hase been already exists.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 01:28:03 PM by Marco2001 »

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

profit004

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 02:21:56 PM »
I did not realize welding helmets they were different. Always good to know these things =) It does make sense that a space suit helmet would have a passive system like that in it.   Anyhow on to the rest ->

I disagree. You can use simplified computers, engines, electronics and everything else...but the suit MUST be the state-of-art  equipement that help you deal with unseen problems. Tell me, what would you like to simplify? Life Support? Battery suply? Personal computer for communication? Lights? If something other like an IR camera will be used, and will breake how will it put the life of an astronaut in danger? On the other hand - how would the astronaut be endangered without an IR camera?
The thing I am trying to say is that space-suit is already super-advanced as it is, and adding non-essential equipement will not lower your chances of survival but make them higher.
Will adding an emergency SOS transponder to your suit will lower your chances of survival becouse you need more resources to maintain that suit?
Will adding GPS to let you know where you are will lover your chances of survival?
Will adding external suit-to-suit power/oxygen port will lower your chances of survival?
Will adding hud with a compas and a map on your helmet will lower your chances of survival during dust storm, which accurs 50% time on mars?
And if the suit is dammaged will the base-crew be able to rapair the suit at all?
I think I made my point.

BTW: the mars suit is currently beying tested. I will post how it looks very soon. There is no need to discuss here over something that hase been already exists.

While I agree some of those things will probably exist, since I am on the path here that simpler is better in this case I might as well take it to the extreme.
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Will adding an emergency SOS transponder to your suit will lower your chances of survival becouse you need more resources to maintain that suit?
Maybe not, but maybe the extra weight of it might cause you to be unable to reach an emergency shelter before your oxygen runs out sometime.   Especially if it requires a fairly heavy antenna to communicate with.

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Will adding GPS to let you know where you are will lover your chances of survival?
Probably not, but if adding it to your suit creates a weak point and it gets damaged and shorts out it could melt through the suit or something.  Or maybe it could get sweaty and short out or martian dust gets in its circuitry and corrodes it causing it to short out and catch fire right as you put it on with a pure oxygen fire fed by fuel from, what use to be you and your fatty tissues, that causes the habitat to become compromised and all the atmosphere escapes and everyone on mars dies because you had to have a GPS.

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Will adding external suit-to-suit power/oxygen port will lower your chances of survival?
If they leak, they sure will.

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Will adding hud with a compas and a map on your helmet will lower your chances of survival during dust storm, which accurs 50% time on mars?
'
Considering the connector between the suit and the helmet will probably become fouled and it will probably not work after about a short time on mars.. I don't see how it will increase your chances that much either.    Unless the suit was designed in some manner that the helmet cannot be removed.

All that said, I think most of those things are still good ideas, and some of my scenarios are unlikely in the extreme but I want you to see that there is a balancing act with every feature that is added adds to the danger that that feature will become a burden.

Marco2001

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 02:55:46 PM »
Listen what you'r saying - your actually proposing to delete the HUD with GPS, the map, the "work orders" list, the "locator" and the ability to trade oxygen & power with another player in MCO  ;D
Those are one of the best equipement in the simulator that has proven extremy usefull in hyper's game - and there is no doubt that it will have the same benefits on real mission.
You'r examples are a little to impropable :D
For instance: why do you suggest that a transponder on Mars would be heavy given the fact that it's only a piece of a small electronic board with a small antena that can only reach as long as you have the visual connection with the comm.tower or a satelite...and not only it weights little on Earth...is weights several times less on Mars. Besides - is it not it's weight we should be discussing but it's cemplexity, isn't it?

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Probably not, but if adding it to your suit creates a weak point and it gets damaged and shorts out it could melt through the suit or something.  Or maybe it could get sweaty and short out or martian dust gets in its circuitry and corrodes it causing it to short out and catch fire right as you put it on with a pure oxygen fire fed by fuel from, what use to be you and your fatty tissues, that causes the habitat to become compromised and all the atmosphere escapes and everyone on mars dies because you had to have a GPS.
That is the most impropable story I've heard in my life.
The same could be said about my watch that has GPS in in. I just hope that when it explodes nobody I love will be near me :D
So you'r saying that becouse ther is one in a milion chance that an equipement backfires and kills you, you should dissasemble it becouse it's better then using it to save you and your teamates lives every second day? Wher's the logic in that?!

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Will adding external suit-to-suit power/oxygen port will lower your chances of survival?
If they leak, they sure will.
The same could be said about the whole suit doesn't it? There are a couple thousands parts in an EVA suit...every one could be bad. That doesn't mean we stopped senting peeple in space...and if by adding one more part to your suit you decrease the chance of someone dying isn't it worth it?

P.S.
The polarisation filter that astronauts use have a manual-switch that moves one filter around the other which changes it's transparency from  something like 5-90%

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

profit004

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 03:53:34 PM »
LOL never said they were not improbable, just was giving an example of how every gadget could be a point of failure.

I was only trying to illustrate that. I am not saying that these were reasons these things could not exist.

And your couple thousand parts of the EVA suit illustrates my point exactly.

Every part is a point of failure. For space where a EVA is an extraordinarily rare event that's is fine.

But I think if people are going to really be spending long durations in an EVA suit on a planet with caustic micro-fine dust, snagging rock outcroppings, and the inertia of a person walking,  the idea will need to be refined to something simpler and more rugged built to take the stress of someone traveling at 1-2MPH rather than few hundred feet per hour in a hostile, abrasive, caustic, environment rather than a vaccuume environment.

(To me) that means that every single addition needs to be carefully weighted and calculated.  And more than that it means (to me) the space suits will need to be refined to the point where they use far less parts, and have many less joints, seams and seals. 

Maybe I am wrong on this but it just feels like there will be problems with these things if we take them to mars and try to make a space suit work as a mars suit.

*Course This is a game so actually it really does not matter*




Marco2001

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 04:42:10 PM »
Yes profit, I know those were just examples but they ilustrated my thought. Those are rare events.
Let me put it that way - space suit is made of thousands of parts from which every one can be malfunctioning - agreed.
There are -let's asume- 2000 parts in an EVA suit. Not all of them will couse death after failure - agreed?
But the thing is that no matter how much you simplify the EVA suit, it will still have -let's asume- 1900 parts. Now hear this - by reducing the suit complexity by 100 parts we gained 1% to survivability rate...but...if we add ~10 more parts which is the IR camera (the elements that are connected with the space suit), we gain 5% better survival rate, becouse it helps us avoid death while during night or a dust storm which accurs every 12 h (night) and minimum 6/24 months on Mars. Overall survival rate increases, even if the risk of a deadly part malfunction accurs - and that is my point. You must also note that the propability that those 10 parts broke is 10/2000 - even if we reduce the suit to a bare casing, you will only gain a few weeks - mayby months - at the cost of an equipement that not only saves your life, but make's it easier and more efficient.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 04:44:17 PM by Marco2001 »

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

profit004

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 05:28:04 PM »
Yes, if those are the actual values I would agree, but I was more thinking we were going to push the parts from 10,000 down to maybe 150-1000.  I am not quite sure if it is possible, but I was considering radically changing the entire design for ruggedization purposes.

*Just checked and actual space suits have 18,000 parts.

But yeah this is entirely derailing the thread.  Sorry about that.

thedubman

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2010, 02:23:08 PM »
hehehe 'Future Tech Card' played....

(in otherwords, its pretty difficult to assume what tech we will have in 50-100 years, just look at computing in the last 10-20 years)

Marco2001

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2010, 10:15:27 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmUCsoK5x2M&feature=grec_index (polarisation filter check at EMU suit at the end).

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aozeba

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Re: IR camera and polarized filter for mars-suit - Idea
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2010, 11:06:45 PM »
I agree with Marco on polarization or at least a UV filter, most spacesuits have these. However, I would suggest a simple solution to the "gadget" problem: a utility belt or chest plate. It would have ports for things like gps, SOS transponder, compass, map, etc. It could have power and data ports or just power ports and wirelessly transmit data. And, if the gps breaks, you just swap it out while you repair the old one. And you could get customized gear for a specific mission, such as a metal detector or a field regolith tester.

And I should certainly hope that repairability of gear is a prime design concern on any long term mission to mars. Otherwise its only going to last as long as the gear does.