Author Topic: Base elevation problem - discussion  (Read 4478 times)

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Marco2001

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Base elevation problem - discussion
« on: February 04, 2011, 08:54:23 AM »
Her's a question/problem that I'am wondering about: base elevation.

As we can see - Hyperia base is a nice colony composed of modules lying on the ground:


Well her's a problem - Mars is essentialy a desert with sandstorms, avalanches, dust sedimentation...and even snow.
Wouldn't the base be covered in regolith in a mater of days?
I mean - even if the location is specific and ther's little erosion activity, when the next sandstorm accurs and a few centimeters of dust will cover the base...you won't be able to open the airlock.

That's why every base on Earth that's on the desert, and even every Mars base design founded in web is elevated a little. Why isn't Hyperia too?



Quote
The building is elevated and shaped so that it creates air movement that sweeps snow away from its underside, preventing the special Antarctic building hazard death-by-snow-drift. It also is supported on columns that can be extended, so that when the snow does drift the building simply raises up.

Animation - Why is elevation necesary? - http://www.ferrarochoi.com/casestudies/southpole/southpole9_jackingdemo.html

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profit004

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 01:32:11 PM »
The base is on the ground to avoid a mess of coding and a rash of bugs, if the little bit of game developer in me is correct.    It might get placed higher later.... Heheheh but I am sure higher is a lower priority.

Wait a minute though...  That one stuck rover went through a couple sandstorms and never got buried... it is only 6 inches tall..  How much sand do those sandstorms actually deposit.?

And I think those bases might be raised for an entirely different reason than you think...  Real mars is rough, rough like sandpaper  They might use those stilt things to level the base and allow the modules to line up on extremely uneven terrain..    Since hyper does not have to worry about that,... He made a nice flat area with his extremely powerful C++ bulldozer (I assume) he can have the buildings sit on the ground.

But anyhow, I think mars with it's exceptionally thin atmosphere does not move as much as things on earth do, it will be enough to cover solar panels a bit, but that is all.

Marco2001

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 02:19:32 PM »
Wait a minute though...  That one stuck rover went through a couple sandstorms and never got buried... it is only 6 inches tall..  How much sand do those sandstorms actually deposit.?

Spirit got stuck in the first place becouse of the dust storm. And it got burried becouse only 1% of light was detected by the PV Pannells.
But not only him - every rover eventualy get's covered totaly by dust. Martian global duststorms last for months - even years.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2007/20jul_duststorm/
http://www.universetoday.com/52242/can-an-immobile-spirit-rover-survive-the-martian-winter/
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mer/news/mer20101028.html

But anyhow, I think mars with it's exceptionally thin atmosphere does not move as much as things on earth do, it will be enough to cover solar panels a bit, but that is all.


That is totaly not true! Scientists thought the same way until they went and check it out from orbit.


Quote
Scientists had considered the dunes to be fairly static, shaped long ago when winds on the planet's surface were much stronger than those seen today, said HiRISE Deputy Principal Investigator Candice Hansen of the Planetary Science Institute, Tucson, Ariz.
Several sets of before-and-after images from HiRISE over a period covering two Martian years -- four Earth years -- tell a different story.

"The numbers and scale of the changes have been really surprising," said Hansen.

A report by Hansen and co-authors in this week's edition of the journal Science identifies the seasonal coming and going of carbon-dioxide ice as one agent of change, and stronger-than-expected wind gusts as another.

A seasonal layer of frozen carbon dioxide, or dry ice, blankets the region in winter and changes directly back to gaseous form in the spring.

"This gas flow destabilizes the sand on Mars' sand dunes, causing sand avalanches and creating new alcoves, gullies and sand aprons on Martian dunes," she said. "The level of erosion in just one Mars year was really astonishing. In some places, hundreds of cubic yards of sand have avalanched down the face of the dunes."

Wind drives other changes. Especially surprising was the discovery that scars of past sand avalanches could be partially erased by wind in just one Mars year. Models of Mars' atmosphere do not predict wind speeds adequate to lift sand grains, and data from Mars landers show high winds are rare.

"Perhaps polar weather is more conducive to high wind speeds," Hansen said.

In all, modifications were seen in about 40 percent of these far-northern monitoring sites over the two-Mars-year period of the study.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/news/mro20110203.html

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

Phyco

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 04:04:13 PM »
He made a nice flat area with his extremely powerful C++ bulldozer

Profit was that bulldozer the one from Avatar as it was a big sucker  :D
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thedubman

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 04:05:47 PM »
I would say I would agree with marco, from a gaming sense of view- I could imagine build up of dust/sand jamming up filters and door seals etc maybe enough to block an doorway to some degree I guess it depends on location and ground conditions. So I guess putting up on stilts/legs would be the way forward.

I expect that right now its would be a low priority. But its something to think about even if its just graphically represented (graphics of legs and inbetween the space some mesh etc, maybe).

I would like to imagine the HAB units to be on tracks (like a tank track) or wheels (that can fold up a bit like an aircraft undercarrige) so they could be 'driven' into positon (or towed) hey maybe even driven like a very large remote rover (of course slowly and have to consider what power etc) or automonlosy (spelling!)... might be a nice backstory of how they get there..

Hab units are sent automatically, they drive from 'big base' to pre-organised route, once at destination they arrange themselves near enough for nauts to align and postion up for base build..unpacking and building. The drive time could/would take weeks/months.. be a nice way to explain how they get there.

profit004

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 04:27:16 PM »
Spirit got stuck because of soft soil, not a dust storm.   Although soft soil is another reason martian buildings will have long supports probably.

And you can cover 1% of a solar panel with dust and get less than 1% of the full power out of it if you put that dust in the right place.  Solar panels are very susceptible to shadowing with even the shadow of a power line killing the output of an entire panel.


« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 04:30:33 PM by profit004 »

thedubman

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2011, 04:37:55 PM »
Ok that makes sense also..

Re: solar panels- I allways wondered in real life terms if you can use 'light collectors' (like a reflective dish) and concentrate light to a solar panel  (imagine an 'ring' or line of reflective dishes, turning with the sun and focusing light on a solar array), and if you could focus light would you get power converted from it? also what would happen with magnified light (if you imagine a magnifing lens and what heat it produces...burn those ants!).

So, would you gain more power conversion from a magnified beam in its area Vs non magnifed light????

thedubman

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2011, 04:43:04 PM »
Spirit got stuck because of soft soil, not a dust storm.   Although soft soil is another reason martian buildings will have long supports probably.



How about cenrifugal auger piles (giant screws used for digging larg and deep cylnidrical holes)  on each corner that bury themselves into the soil (which can allow rasing and lowering) water pumped around screw piles sub surface could freeze up allowing support. Heating elements to unfreeze if needed- just a thought.

profit004

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 04:53:36 PM »
About the solar panels.. Yes, if you have a concentrator many types of solar panels will produce power on a linear curve with how much light they are receiving.

This actually gets a little crazy with super high efficiency solar cells.   Let me see if I can find a picture...

Hrm.. I cannot But they are impressive, they are a single solar cell with what looks like welding cable strapped to them since they put out such high amperage at about a volt.  They usually need a cooling system as well or it will melt the aluminum or copper wire right off the cell

Here is one actually, this one is made by an Israeli firm.  (GO figure, Israel would want to get off of Arab oil)
http://www.greentechmedia.com/wp-content//uploads/2008/12/azenith.jpg  There is a solar cell in there, and a bunch of cooling to keep things from melting.

* these types of applications use almost exclusively multi junction solar cell's because of their super high efficiency but their very high costs.  But if you only need 1 and not a panel of them...

 

« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 05:01:06 PM by profit004 »

profit004

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 05:02:43 PM »
How about cenrifugal auger piles (giant screws used for digging larg and deep cylnidrical holes)  on each corner that bury themselves into the soil (which can allow rasing and lowering) water pumped around screw piles sub surface could freeze up allowing support. Heating elements to unfreeze if needed- just a thought.
I think it would work, but flat plates will eventually reach bedrock in soft soil. With a lot simpler construction.

Marco2001

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 05:14:51 PM »
Could you explain, what's the problem with programing elevated habitat? I'am not a programer, so I don't understand it.

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What about using airbag pillows, that elevate the structure to match the topography, and has vent's inside that enables the air to go under base? (the base would not be covered by dust)
The airbags could even be elevated futher if needed by simply activating compressor.
It looks like this:
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 05:38:21 PM by Marco2001 »

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

profit004

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2011, 05:25:44 PM »
From a programming standpoint, the collision boxes lose their tolerance for marginal designs when you elevate something.   

 Of course it can be overcome with time and very careful beta testing, but in the mean time it means a lot of people will fall through a 1 pixel crack in the floor and become stuck in the terrain.   

You will see this behavior a lot in fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas where the ground tiles are for all intents and purposes just an elevated building inside of sub zones with no actual ground in a lot of places.  You can fall through rocks and fall through the world in many places.  You can even use this to your advantage in fallout 3 and sneak into the brotherhood of steel without doing the plot missions.

profit004

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2011, 05:31:19 PM »
In case you dont know, collision meshes are a low polygon mesh applied to an object to determine if an actor should be affected by it.   For example a building in a game without a collision mesh you could walk through the walls, or if the ground is missing its collision mesh you would fall through it.

Here is an example.  ON the left you will see the object, and on the right is the collision mesh the game maker generated to determine where you can and cannot pass through.

http://www.gameartisans.org/gamecon/tutorials/images/collmodel.jpg



Marco2001

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2011, 05:41:33 PM »
He made a nice flat area with his extremely powerful C++ bulldozer

Profit was that bulldozer the one from Avatar as it was a big sucker  :D

You mean this one?  ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKxO6qxpUJA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

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Edit: Thank you profit for you explanation. :) To me it seems, that this could be done, with a little help of many testers who try to go everywhere, and report where that pixel hole is. As you said - Fallot 3 has elevated buildings, yet I never felt under the map, even tho' it's possible...so it's not that common glitch and can be done :)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 05:47:02 PM by Marco2001 »

Poland here. My time: GMT + 1h
Writing a book about Mars. Any ideas? Type to me.
I'am an Astrobiology/Biology student.

profit004

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Re: Base elevation problem - discussion
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2011, 05:55:23 PM »
I even said it COULD be done... I am saying it takes time and there are more important game play issues to address.

* in fallout 3 the caves, buildings and vaults almost all had this problem.  In fallout NV add the world map, and other pieces of terrain.   I ended up using TCL in the console a lot!!  Your ability to avoid it I imagine must mean you did not play for very long or if you did you somehow managed to always stay in the perfect place.

(Ironicly TCL stands for Toggle Collision Layer. And it suspends the gravity physics so you can float back up to where you should be..)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 05:57:58 PM by profit004 »