Permadeath or Spawndeath - Discussion

[Marco2001]

Permadeath or Spawndeath
It's a good question, so I started this discussion. There is only one choice: either MCO has a permdeath and avatars reely DO die (which means they'r account is deleted, and they have to start all over again) or allow Spawndeath (limited or unlimited).

Each has it (dis)advantages:
Permadeath
(+)
Very real - the key for a simulator which MCO is.
A good motivation for good work.
Innovation for gaming that has never been seen before.
Requires planing and teamwork. Helping ono another.
Gives a thrill when playing. One bad step and goodbye...
If player has a revard/order it means HE REELY earned it (not unlike in other games, when you retry over and over again)

(-)
Player can die in an unrelated accident - LAG/Bug/Kill.
Team Kills may become a real issue. If someone kills you in rage, you just respawn later. When Permdeath is aplied - that's not possible (I thing killing someone is still a part of the simulation tho' but the killer should be penatilized with a Ban according to the killed-man justice)
If a player die after so much trouble, he might be pissed and quit playing (but doesn't that happen all the time in other games too?)
Playing SINGLE will be a problem, since there will be no-one to help/rescue you.

Spawndeath
(+)
It's easier for noobs.
It's gives you a possibility to learn.
When you die in an accident - you can always get back and play more.
Lag/BUG/Kill is not an issue.

(-)
It's just the same as in other games. No innovation. No reality. No simulation. No threat and currage - just playing, No rewards, No thrill.
Player can die "for FUN".
Player can kill "for FUN" (but that's common in all games)

Personaly I think that MCO is not an Alien-Shooter game and if someone like us will want to play it, he will want something new, something with quality, thrilling and inteligent with lot's of planing....something more like a Simulator. Simulator shoud have a Permdeath option.

I think it will be easy: death = deleting account. And if someone wants to keep play, have to create new account and start from zero (experience, cash?, standings, etc) and travel from Earth to Mars.

(My point of view exactly! Good idea!)

Permadeath or Spawndeath. I like Permadeath but most dont. Most people would choose to have a respawn with some sort of penalty.

Make a switch and let the future server-admin decide, what type of game he wants to offer. Personally i'd prefer the permadeath-method too, because it forces you to plan your actions thoroughly.

atm. when i travel from the base hub to the mining outpost, my rover has at least toolkit, oxygen can and methane can in it to prevent being stuck too far away from the next base  

edit: just an idea to play around with: make a maximum number of allowed respawns in a game. every death beyond that number is a permadeath.

[Hyper]

I planned on a switch the owner of the game/server can set it as they wish.

[Marco2001]

Actually - I'am not sure if that's a good idea. If players will have a choice to have easy/hard mode than what kind penalty will they have in-game as for a simulator? That is just not real, and no-one will want to join a server with Permdeath ON. It's the same as in any other game with Teamkill ON - no one will join a server with that option On becouse....why the hell? I just think that alowing that function will make mora damage to the MCO simulator than the advantages. If you could chose the simulation parameters and set them to EASY (egzample: Spawndeath) with the same ending resoult then what dirrenece would it make for the player? He would chose the easier option for less trouble. But trouble are the essence of MCO! Facing them is the essence of good gameplay in a simulation of a colony on Mars.
I could see it now...two teenagers playing...
"hey look...I dont need a suit to go outside and play!"
"No don't! You'll die!"
<<Dies>>
"Relax...I still have 2 more lives!  "
 

[Snowpig]

there should be some special rewards for playing on a permadeath:on - server ...incentives to play there, you know? 

[Marco2001]

there should be some special rewards for playing on a permadeath:on - server ...incentives to play there, you know? 

To make this discussion going - do you have any sugestions on how to do that? 

[Snowpig]

hmm for the beginning:

- different high-score lists. Those people, who like to achieve #1 in a high score list will try to do it in every list; the more difficult the game settings for that, the more the show-off-factor ("i played this game in hardcore-mode")

- additional rewards/items for playing "hard mode" - like additional base equipment or additional badges on the EVAs or unlock of additional areas 

[Hyper]

Marco argues his own point...priceless...

[Phyco]

I am new to MCO but not new to online gaming and have see some great games wrecked by the minority bad eggs, FPS are a great example die spawn back kill die and so on

Spawndeath to me is not a great idea as i have played games like GRID (car Racing game online) and a lot of players go completely stupid if it means dieing and just spawning back in.

Not a big fan of killing off my player and starting a new name.
maybe reset skill/Rank and/or assets to zero is a better option.

as for accidental killings, how do you control what is accidental or not?
as in most games of that nature weather accidental or not you get punished, maybe loss of 1 rank or something of value to stop and make the player think next time.

if MCO goes to a larger map, players would just drive to the ends of mars and run out of fuel, die leaving the rover behind spawn back in walk till you die spawn back in so on, we would run out of rovers quickly

[Snowpig]

in a simulation like this, most hazards don't appear suddenly without a reason or a chance to prepare yourself for. A meteorite which is about to hit the surface could be detectable by an observatory, same for radiation warnings. storms, bad weather could be detectable/predictable by a meteorology station. equipment failure is caused by damaged or not properly maintained equipment.

to summarize it: almost all reasons for death are either predictable or avoidable, which leaves the responsibility for the survival of the colony in the hands of the players. if there is one player, who drives that rover far away and dies there, then it is a "self-made" problem. you can solve it either by social interaction ("Don't do that!") or by a hardcoded mechanism like vote for kick.

In my opinion players doing "stupid things" should be punished for doing them. What happens if you don't do that you can watch in Moon Base Alpha, where every other game there is always someone who draws his fun from spoiling the party of this fellow players.

[Spyre9]

Common way to punish for death is a loss of exp. What about Clones? Anyone seen the film "Moon"? Have the ability to clone maybe once every 24-48 hours, that way any experience gained can be stored, and no one wants to loose their exp.

Allot is also dependent on what the game will be. An example of what could happen... the game is a MMORPG, you have the Server set up with Mars as a full planet and different territories and various corporations have funded a base each on Mars. The first Base is the corps landing area and training for new employees of that corp. Once skill/level is high enough they can bid reputation points or whatever to get the rights to set up a base in another territory. At that point they have the choice to make death perm or spawn based, but perm death gives a bonus to mining output which overall leads to faster profits, allowing purchasing of new equipment and overall economic domination of Mars. I think that most would go for the perma-death for the edge over spawners.

Major disadvantage on perma-death is if someone invests a month or two into their avatar, and they die and have to start over.... well they may not bother.

A Variation on the above, its a personal choice, Cloning costs you money and if you don't clone you get a bonus to exp.

Maybe a timer on death in which time you can be revived in, granted you might have to fix the problem first or get them to the base - if not your dead and buried.

[aozeba]

How about Permadeath, but with the possibility of rescue and revival? The way it would work is that if you "lost consciousness" out on the surface, your body would stay there for 24 hours (or however long seems reasonable) and other players could rescue you and bring your character back to life. The person who rescues you should get some sort of huge exp bonus, to encourage rescues.

Of course this would only work if you had your suit on, since anyone stupid enough to walk outside without it deserves permadeath.

Because you lost consciousness and were barely alive when they brought you in, you would have some memory loss "big loss of exp" and the loss of health and other stats that already happens when you re-spawn. The loss needs to be big enough that its not worth it for people to die and get rescued on purpose, though.

[Hyper]

Spawn death is ok but I think the health bar should be slow to build back up. Slow enough you dont want to endure it but yet fast enough to get the player back in the game. That would keep the death to a minimum and still keep the player in the game.

[profit004]

There is actually one other way this could be handled...     

We could go the clone route but have only 1 clone in storage/spare and thereby making one death minor, 2 deaths in a row devastating forcing the player to wait maybe a day real time to have the new clone shipped in from earth/grown.

I do not endorse this idea, as there are problems with it, just throwing it out there.

[Kraniel]

I think that Hyper said somewhere that he would put a switch in...

So for hardcore sim fans - permadeath, fail and start all over.

For the rest of us - Spawndeath with some light penalties. Perhaps we must retrieve the tools and gear near our old bodies. Death should have a penalty on the whole colony - that might be a nice way to handle it without breaking everything for everyone. Of course, there better be some spare suits around, if its sitting at the death spot. Another conundrum.

Even 20 years from now - cloning will not be an option. It really is science fiction/farce the way it is used in most games.

[aozeba]

Even 20 years from now - cloning will not be an option. It really is science fiction/farce the way it is used in most games.

Agreed. Sure we could make a copy of a person genetically (which would be like a twin sibling) but we have no way to "copy" someone's mind into the clone.

No one's commented on the rescue idea, is that because we don't like it?